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What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

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  • #16
    Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

    Originally posted by Ophidia View Post
    'Shamanism' has become an umbrella term, much like 'Paganism'. We use it so we know what we're talking about, lol.
    I think that is part of the problem. We collectively have allowed it to be dumbed down because we don't say "NO, That is Not what it is!" So in paganism its reducing intellectual level of education even as Anthropology and other formal sciences resists its continued usage as a global description and concept. But in the ever growing pagan practice of do what you want and don't upset anyone, it gets more and more corrupted. Sadly very similar I think to what is now happening with much of HooDoo, VooDoo, Voudun, Santeria, etc as the disapora practices have become the new buzz word for the pagan crowd.

    Then to say, it's so we know what were talking about as a subject, that's the greatest slam I think regarding just how much it is becoming nothing vice actually being a reflection of certain traits, gifts and cultural influences.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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    • #17
      Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      I think that is part of the problem. We collectively have allowed it to be dumbed down because we don't say "NO, That is Not what it is!" So in paganism its reducing intellectual level of education even as Anthropology and other formal sciences resists its continued usage as a global description and concept. But in the ever growing pagan practice of do what you want and don't upset anyone, it gets more and more corrupted...
      LOL - I think if people wanted a Pope to tell them whether they are or are not what they say they are, they'd just become Catholic.

      Thinking for one's self is unlikely to reduce anybody's intellectual level.

      Quite the opposite, in fact.
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      • #18
        Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
        LOL - I think if people wanted a Pope to tell them whether they are or are not what they say they are, they'd just become Catholic.

        Thinking for one's self is unlikely to reduce anybody's intellectual level.

        Quite the opposite, in fact.
        If they were thinking for themselves i'd agree but the way the very words Shaman and Shamanism are being watered down and presented in so many 101 books they appear not to be thinking at all. Much less asking questions about it beyond what the latest pagan author is saying.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        • #19
          Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
          If they were thinking for themselves i'd agree but the way the very words Shaman and Shamanism are being watered down and presented in so many 101 books they appear not to be thinking at all. Much less asking questions about it beyond what the latest pagan author is saying.
          Ah, well, I understand that.

          But you'll never stop dumb from being dumb - any attempt just encourages dumb.

          They're no worse than the wanna-be Buddhists who think wearing yellow robes, shaving their heads, and burning incense makes them Buddhists, or that meditating will teach them to levitate. And Buddhism actually has well defined precepts...
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          • #20
            Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

            To me, it's the difference between 'trees' and 'elm, pine, oak, birch, palm, etc & so forth, ad nauseum'. Shaman, pagan, African Diasporic religions, trees - the pluralistic terms are used for brevity's sake.

            When a person generally speaks about 'shamanic techniques' or 'shamanic practices', most people who are familiar w/alternate spiritualities basically understand that the person is referring to indigenous pre-Christian practices or the priesthood of indigenous tribes. There are a multitude of differences between how a Cree practices their spirituality vs. how a Sentinelese practices their spirituality vs how the Surma practice their spirituality, and if I was talking specifically about the Cree or Inuit or whichever people, I would use more specific terms. I feel that a person can talk about 'animals' without diminishing the importance of 'bees', and the same goes for shamanistic religious practices.
            The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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            • #21
              Re: What kind of shamanist and how do you experience spirits?

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              So in paganism its reducing intellectual level of education even as Anthropology and other formal sciences resists its continued usage as a global description and concept.
              Erm...they aren't so much resisting its use, as debating it. And either way, the word still gets used in academia.


              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              I think that is part of the problem. We collectively have allowed it to be dumbed down because we don't say "NO, That is Not what it is!"
              Words get used in different context all the time. Gay used to just mean happy. Kleenex=tissues. Language evolves.

              Or, this:

              That's because native beliefs AREN'T shamanism. Native beliefs are native beliefs. Some of which happen to have elements and practices that resemble practices written about by Michael Harner and his associates.

              'Shamanism' is a modern (and very non-native Western) term which derives from the Tungus word that certain tribes of Siberia used to describe their spirit workers. Anthropologists observed these spirit workers... then observed other spirit workers and healers of other cultures and noticed that some of the practices were similar. So they started calling ALL spirit workers, healers, psychopomps and medicine men/women 'shamans'. Then Michael Harner wrote a book detailing all the practices and techniques that he had noticed various 'shamans' from various cultures doing... and posited that if we strip the cultural context from them (cultural context = belief, tradition, mythology, society etc) then we have a set of core techniques and practices which can be called 'shamanism' and practiced by anyone, anywhere.

              Shamanism isn't a belief system. It's a set of techniques
              .
              “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

              “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
              ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

              "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
              ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

              "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

              Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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