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    What about chickens?

    Thought question for today.

    This one has no correct answer - feel free to speculate!

    If everybody on earth became vegan and had no desire for meat or any animal products, what would happen to chickens?

    (Note: Chickens can not survive in the wild - they are a human created species)
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: What about chickens?

    Same thing that happens to all animal species that invade the crops, they'd be slaughtered and their bodies left to rot. Probably even more so considering many of the varmint tags that are issued today the meat is actually used and consumed.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      #3
      Re: What about chickens?

      Chickens would die, unless they were pets.
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        #4
        Re: What about chickens?

        Originally posted by thalassa View Post
        Chickens would die, unless they were pets.
        i.e: they would go extinct, unless preserved.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #5
          Re: What about chickens?

          Watched something on History about what happens if WE humans go extinct. It showed that our dogs that were bred to be just cute would most likely be eaten by REAL dogs,that still had the ability to be hunters. Cats would probably have little problem going back to nature.
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            #6
            Re: What about chickens?

            Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
            i.e: they would go extinct, unless preserved.
            Not sure that is true. Seen lots of free range chickens survive harsh winters and reproduce with little to no human interaction.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #7
              Re: What about chickens?

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              Not sure that is true. Seen lots of free range chickens survive harsh winters and reproduce with little to no human interaction.
              How many generations?

              Yes, in a amenable climate, with no predators larger than a bullfrog, they can limp on for generations.

              However, to continue as a wild species, they'd have to quickly develop some defenses. They can't fly, hens don't fight, and cocks can't win consistently against weazelly animals (weasels, minks, martins, etc.), 'coons, 'possums, cats, dogs, rats, etc.

              In other words, you will find short-lived groups of feral chickens, but you'll never find chickens as invasive species.
              Last edited by B. de Corbin; 25 Jul 2014, 08:48.
              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                #8
                Re: What about chickens?

                Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                How many generations?

                Yes, in a amenable climate, with no predators larger than a bullfrog, they can limp on for generations.

                However, to continue as a wild species, they'd have to quickly develop some defenses. They can't fly, hens don't fight, and cocks can't win consistently against weazelly animals (weasels, minks, martins, etc.), 'coons, 'possums, cats, dogs, rats, etc.
                Two to three at most but as far as survival i'd say they have the same traits as a wild turkey. Even to the notion of not truly flying but able to leap and glide for considerable distances. Had to chase down or out of tree's my fair share of chickens. Leave them in a coop and i'd say yes they get taken out fairly easy, let them run wild and forage they are not quite so easy to overcome.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #9
                  Re: What about chickens?

                  Well, keep up your observations. We'll run the experiment...
                  Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                    #10
                    Re: What about chickens?

                    Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                    Watched something on History about what happens if WE humans go extinct. It showed that our dogs that were bred to be just cute would most likely be eaten by REAL dogs,that still had the ability to be hunters. Cats would probably have little problem going back to nature.
                    I don't know that I agree with the former (the latter is well established with great precedent--feral cats). Even little "cute" breeds were mostly (with a few exceptions) bred to specific jobs and retain that instinct...some of which are hella smart. What is to say that without humans, some of those species wouldn't be able to adapt to new conditions and eventually might become entirely new species?

                    For example...the dachsund was originally bred to flush out badgers and other burrowing animals...they are not necessairly competition to, say, a cocker spaniel that was bred for flushing out woodcock and other ground birds or a deerhound which was bred for stalking and chasing down deer (and are sometimes still used for coyote hunting). I am, of course, assuming a prey-rich environment, considering we've gotten rid of many natural predators...which would give those animals some time time adapt before they have competition (and predation) from species like the mountain lion or wolves--at least here in the US.



                    I don't know that chickens have that skill. I don't know enough about chickens...


                    (also, as an aside...wild turkeys fly quite well--up to 55 mph and as far as 100 yards...which might not sound like far, but in the environment they live in, is enough to escape predators...or scare the crud out of me on a hike)
                    Last edited by thalassa; 25 Jul 2014, 09:05.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                      #11
                      Re: What about chickens?

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      Thought question for today.

                      This one has no correct answer - feel free to speculate!

                      If everybody on earth became vegan and had no desire for meat or any animal products, what would happen to chickens?

                      (Note: Chickens can not survive in the wild - they are a human created species)
                      Erm...you're the teacher, pardon me for stepping on your toes, but...chickens are a man-made species?

                      Domesticated (sort of, for food) yes, but man-made? The way you make it sound is that the current "chicken" is the equivalent of the Chiquita Banana - a hybrid species that simply could not have existed without man. I don't think chickens quite fill the same niche.

                      Anyway, I have two answers, one supported by *gasp* Wikipedia, mainly because I don't think this is a big enough deal to warrant real research

                      Chickens are omnivores.[11] In the wild, they often scratch at the soil to search for seeds, insects and even larger animals such as lizards, small snakes or young mice.[12]
                      from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken where they also discuss their evolutionary history a bit.

                      That being said, I have never met a dumber animal than a chicken - if they did survive, it would be through numbers and luck. But evolution has provided for stranger...

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      How many generations?

                      Yes, in a amenable climate, with no predators larger than a bullfrog, they can limp on for generations.
                      So, in an environment that would support chickens then? I mean, sharks won't do so well in the desert, is all I'm saying.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      However, to continue as a wild species, they'd have to quickly develop some defenses.
                      Not necessarily. You have to consider the nature and the number of potential threats - plus, most chickens can...well, not fly, but can jump pretty friggen high by flapping - enough to get into some trees. There is, I feel, *enough* survival drive to support the species, as long as there were "enough" numbers to begin with. And I don't think that number would necessarily need to be all that high.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      They can't fly,
                      Weeeeelllll....not like a duck or a hawk, for sure. But they can fly a helluva lot better than I can.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      hens don't fight, and cocks can't win consistently against weazelly animals (weasels, minks, martins, etc.), 'coons, 'possums, cats, dogs, rats, etc.
                      True, but the hens hatching the eggs only needs to rely on 1) multiple disparate nests (which per Wiki says they do), the ability to bring an egg to fruition if the parents are killed (also something chickens do by instinct), and as you say, the ability to defend (or hide) themselves from predators.

                      At this point we would really need to identify the specific environment that you're talking about. The desert? I think chickens might actually do pretty well there, all things considered. Not a whole lot of predators - some coyote's, owls, etc, but by and large the desert is a big empty place filled with bugs (which chickens eat). Now the forest would be something completely different, offering different predators and different opportunities. It's likely that within 5 generations the chickens in the desert will start looking and behaving vastly different from those in the forest.

                      Depending on the environment they may do "ok" at first...but that's all it takes. Hell, the human population came from a total of 1200 (iirc, might be twice that) breeding pairs, which isn't all that many.

                      Oh, and the cock would not have to survive every predator or even most of them...he just needs to survive long enough to knock up a hen, then (as most men), his usefulness will be exhausted.

                      Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                      In other words, you will find short-lived groups of feral chickens, but you'll never find chickens as invasive species.
                      Hrm, well, as an "invasive species" changes the nature of the question significantly. I don't think that the ladybug will ever become a top-level predator, but that's a far cry from saying that they're going to die off for being stupid/lazy/not cute enough/whatever.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      If you check on netflix there's a documentary about the science of dogs - like cockroaches, they have evolved to take advantage of human behavior. They are one of the few animals that naturally understands what "pointing" means (true story - if you point at a food dish, a dog will follow where you're pointing...a wolf will continue to look at you like you're retarded, as do gorillas and lots of other "intelligent" species).

                      That being said, dogs are not that far from where they started in the grand scheme of things, and we know packs of feral dogs roam streets and such, indicating that they can survive very well on their own.

                      Eventually they'd probably all start looking like the same species...dogs don't mind getting freaky, but I think they'd do just fine too. Probably better than chickens.

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                        #12
                        Re: What about chickens?

                        Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                        Erm...you're the teacher, pardon me for stepping on your toes, but...chickens are a man-made species?

                        Domesticated (sort of, for food) yes, but man-made? The way you make it sound is that the current "chicken" is the equivalent of the Chiquita Banana - a hybrid species that simply could not have existed without man. I don't think chickens quite fill the same niche.

                        Actually (because I did look this up out of curiosity after the dog comment) it is thought that the domestic chicken likely a result of a hybrid mix (purposely or accidental?) of two separate species: Gallus gallus (the red jungle fowl) and Gallus sonnerati.

                        But what I really wanted to say, only because I think its interesting, not as anything productive, necessairly...

                        Corn.

                        Corn is man-made. I'm not talking about franken-Monsanto corn...just regular, pre-genetic age, corn. Corn has been so wholly domesticated--its gene structure changed so much through selective breeding, expanded so far out of its native range (somewhere in South America, and I want to say Peru, but I'm not looking it up to verify and I could be wrong), and changed morphologically so much from its original form that we actually have no idea* what species it came from or how domestication was accomplished.

                        I think that is absolutely amazing.

                        We made corn. We started with the rough draft of a random grass, and invented an entirely new species over generations.


                        *Edit to add, we have some idea, but still aren't sure of the particulars, and we only know because there is a similar species, but its not the original one, but that depends on whose research you read

                        *Edited again to add, I've missed some research on this idea over the past few years...damn you corn. You suck.

                        Last edited by thalassa; 25 Jul 2014, 09:38.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                          #13
                          Re: What about chickens?

                          Completely and 100% totally unrelated.

                          I despise corn....have for as long as I can remember. Can't even smell the stuff without making me want to retch.

                          I also had my own DNA sequenced and I also have about 3.4% Neanderthal DNA (which is actually quite a bit - I'm in the 99th percentile). If one were to extrapolate from known information, one could assume that the Neanderthal existed before anything that resembles what we call "corn"...so it's possible that my aversion to corn is actually an aversion to the unnaturalness...the pure EVIL...that's contained within.

                          Coincidence!?!?!?!?!??!?!





                          Probably.

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                            #14
                            Re: What about chickens?

                            Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                            Completely and 100% totally unrelated.

                            I despise corn....have for as long as I can remember. Can't even smell the stuff without making me want to retch.

                            I also had my own DNA sequenced and I also have about 3.4% Neanderthal DNA (which is actually quite a bit - I'm in the 99th percentile). If one were to extrapolate from known information, one could assume that the Neanderthal existed before anything that resembles what we call "corn"...so it's possible that my aversion to corn is actually an aversion to the unnaturalness...the pure EVIL...that's contained within.

                            Coincidence!?!?!?!?!??!?!





                            Probably.

                            Lol...then again, you are mostly European, yeah?

                            "Corn" didn't make it over there until just a few hundred (okay 5 or 6) years ago...so maybe it IS genetics! WAH-HAHAHAHAHA!!! (insert evil laugh track) I'm always amused when I see "corn" mentioned in Pagan things as having "such and such ye olde meaning" because...you know, no corn. They had the word corn...but that was a stand in for any grain. Maize became corn later.
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                              #15
                              Re: What about chickens?

                              God dammit!

                              You're gonna make me work for my fun...

                              Originally posted by Roknrol View Post
                              Erm...you're the teacher, pardon me for stepping on your toes, but...chickens are a man-made species?

                              Domesticated (sort of, for food) yes, but man-made? The way you make it sound is that the current "chicken" is the equivalent of the Chiquita Banana - a hybrid species that simply could not have existed without man. I don't think chickens quite fill the same niche.

                              Anyway, I have two answers, one supported by *gasp* Wikipedia, mainly because I don't think this is a big enough deal to warrant real research
                              The last time I checked, there was no real certainty as to where chickens came from, before the hand o' man took hold. The last time I looked, the theory was that they were bred out of guinea fowl (nasty little buggers that, though domesticated, CAN survive in the wild), and Thalassa has found information indicating that they came from Red Jungle Fowl (these actually look like chickens) Genetic research can probably answer the question, but, the point is - they've been so bred for so long that I feel calling them a "man made species" is appropriate.

                              That being said, I have never met a dumber animal than a chicken - if they did survive, it would be through numbers and luck. But evolution has provided for stranger...

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              So, in an environment that would support chickens then? I mean, sharks won't do so well in the desert, is all I'm saying.

                              Not necessarily. You have to consider the nature and the number of potential threats - plus, most chickens can...well, not fly, but can jump pretty friggen high by flapping - enough to get into some trees. There is, I feel, *enough* survival drive to support the species, as long as there were "enough" numbers to begin with. And I don't think that number would necessarily need to be all that high.

                              Weeeeelllll....not like a duck or a hawk, for sure. But they can fly a helluva lot better than I can.
                              OK, two things.

                              Chickens can flutter enough to get into low branches (you've seen pictures do roosters on fence posts). Monsno_leedra compared them to turkeys, another ground bird. However, although (wild) turkeys are ground birds, they can fly like an SOB - one of dog's jobs is to chance turkey's out of the garden. Trust me on this, they can escape anything short of a shotgun.

                              Wild turkeys, like chickens, nest on the ground, but they are big, bad fighters, and can fight off 'coons, etc., to protect nests on the ground. Chickens can't.

                              Could chickens survive in SPECIFIC environments? Sure - the Galapagos Islands come to mind, and, maybe, Hawaii. The key is, as I wrote earlier, no predators larger than a bullfrog (which, by the way, can eat chicks, but be eated by chickens). This is going to severely limit their range, AND, most importantly, prevent them from moving into new environments, thereby extending their range.

                              Which is where we come to the invasive species idea.

                              A species that is extremely subject to common predators, and can only survive under very special conditions in limited areas, ends up extinct, sooner or later.

                              Initial numbers are less important (though still meaningful). Humans, for example, are very versatile and fight like monsters for survival.

                              Unlike chickens.

                              P.S. - no, the cock does not have to survive all, or even most predators. But, since the cock provides the protection to non-fighting hens who must sit eggs on a ground nest, if they don't survive frequently, neither does the hen, or the eggs.

                              This is why they may live feral for a few generations, but the total population decreases each generation until in ends with zero.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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