Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

If his creative vision was all white, and he included other races just because it's PC, would that make him a racist?

(I confess to liking his earlier stuff. Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex but Were Afraid to Ask, with Gene Wilder and the sheep, and the giant boob, appealed to my adolescent sense of humor. Also, Sleeper, as I recall, was a hoot. He got pretentious and boring later...)

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(Return with new idea)

I'm an artist. I grew up in Detroit. However, I have never depicted a black person, and, even when I draw on history for inspiration, I draw on Western European history.

If I drew on African art for inspiration, I'd be accused of "cultural appropriation," whatever that is.

If I were creating comedy, and I used the exaggeration necessary in creating comedy to depict the black folks I know from life and work as comic figures, I'd certainly be accused of racism.

When someone decides to "play the race card" on you, there is absolutely NO WAY to win. Yer damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

(Return with new idea)

I'm an artist. I grew up in Detroit. However, I have never depicted a black person, and, even when I draw on history for inspiration, I draw on Western European history.

If I drew on African art for inspiration, I'd be accused of "cultural appropriation," whatever that is.

If I were creating comedy, and I used the exaggeration necessary in creating comedy to depict the black folks I know from life and work as comic figures, I'd certainly be accused of racism.

When someone decides to "play the race card" on you, there is absolutely NO WAY to win. Yer damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't.

True dat.


Possibly, that might be why I never thought of him as racist. His *art*, if we all agree to call it that, is only a reflection of his vision, his pretense or tale that he wants told, it does not encompass who he is or what he believes, in and of itself. I'm sure he'll be heckled for any number of reasons that people see fit. Particularly, based on his work history. Racism plays into that victimization angle (that people seem to love so much) AND is a clearly indefensible accusation. "Proving that it isn't," doesn't work very well.

[Medusa]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

Ok. Well that's settled. He's not racist. Just his vision.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

Ok. Well that's settled. He's not racist. Just his vision.

Glad I could help.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

If his creative vision was all white, and he included other races just because it's PC, would that make him a racist?

(I confess to liking his earlier stuff. Everything You Wanted to Know About Sex but Were Afraid to Ask, with Gene Wilder and the sheep, and the giant boob, appealed to my adolescent sense of humor. Also, Sleeper, as I recall, was a hoot. He got pretentious and boring later...)

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(Return with new idea)

I'm an artist. I grew up in Detroit. However, I have never depicted a black person, and, even when I draw on history for inspiration, I draw on Western European history.

If I drew on African art for inspiration, I'd be accused of "cultural appropriation," whatever that is.

If I were creating comedy, and I used the exaggeration necessary in creating comedy to depict the black folks I know from life and work as comic figures, I'd certainly be accused of racism.

When someone decides to "play the race card" on you, there is absolutely NO WAY to win. Yer damned if ya do, and damned if ya don't.

That's actually not true. I've drawn a variety of different POC and have used many non-white symbols, and have never been accused of anything. The difference between representation and appropriation is pretty definite. If you portray someone with empathy, its representation. If you exploit, its appropriation. For example, a white model in a bikini and a war bonnet is wrong. That clothing has specific meaning. If I draw a tribal chief in a war bonnet, even if he's totally a figment of my imagination, that's representation.

I'm not terribly PC or interested in the "social justice" movement, but all white people is freaking BORING. That's the least of reason Woody Allen gets none of my money, but I digress.

If you want to be part of a solution to the problem, you have to be willing to stick your neck out. I feel like I'm tough enough to handle any stupid crap leveled at me were it to happen, because I know I'm making art with empathy.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

For example, a white model in a bikini and a war bonnet is wrong. That clothing has specific meaning. .

Well, that's what I'd be most likely to do, so there's that.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

Well, that's what I'd be most likely to do, so there's that.

Is this real life, or are you just being facetious?

Because I get not wanting to kowtow to every stupid notion of the SJ warriors, but I don't know why someone would go out of their way to do something offensive, unless the intend IS to be offensive...which, whatever, some artists are into all that jazz, but that didn't really seem like your MO.

I like sexy people and I draw lots of them. But that's totally doable without being just boringly gross.

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

I never gave Spike Lee much thought until recently when he ranted against the "gentrification" of "his" neighborhood in Brooklyn, saying the "his people" had been there since the mid-60's.

Who does he think "his people" took it over from? Yeah you got it - MY people. I was born and spent my first 11 years there, and it all went downhill fast, not because of race, but because of trashy, disrespectful, ignorant people. I know my parents had no intention of ever leaving until they got forced out, and I often wonder what my life would be like today if that pivotal change hadn't happened. (Might be worse, might be better, but would def. be different.)

As for Woody Allen, snoozefest galore!

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

Is this real life, or are you just being facetious?

I honestly don't know.

But if I did get the urge to draw or paint a naked lady with feathers, I probably would. Not to be offensive per se, but because if I have a beautiful picture in my head, and that's how it looks, that's what I'd do. Being PC is not one of my virtues.

But, more likely, if it weren't for the fact that I can't stand copying other's work, I might do some Navajo-style silverwork. What stops me isn't that I'd be "stealing" another culture's style (as soon as somebody else sees it, the aesthetics no longer belong to the original culture. Eyeballs don't recognize stylistic copyright) - it's like I said... I have too many of my own thoughts to want to think those of another.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

I honestly don't know.

But if I did get the urge to draw or paint a naked lady with feathers, I probably would. Not to be offensive per se, but because if I have a beautiful picture in my head, and that's how it looks, that's what I'd do. Being PC is not one of my virtues.

But, more likely, if it weren't for the fact that I can't stand copying other's work, I might do some Navajo-style silverwork. What stops me isn't that I'd be "stealing" another culture's style (as soon as somebody else sees it, the aesthetics no longer belong to the original culture. Eyeballs don't recognize stylistic copyright) - it's like I said... I have too many of my own thoughts to want to think those of another.

Borrowing inspiration from a culture that is not yours is only appropriation if you are insulting and abusing it, or claiming it as your own...or claiming it is Navajo, when it's 'midwestern white guy'. And you CAN draw a pretty naked girl with feathers in her hair, without it being a war bonnet, again, totally acceptable.

I'm not interested in being PC, but I am interested in human beings and respecting them.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

Borrowing inspiration from a culture that is not yours is only appropriation if you are insulting and abusing it, or claiming it as your own...or claiming it is Navajo, when it's 'midwestern white guy'. And you CAN draw a pretty naked girl with feathers in her hair, without it being a war bonnet, again, totally acceptable.

I'm not interested in being PC, but I am interested in human beings and respecting them.

That's your interpretation, and I mainly agree. I'll tell you, though, that the most vocal people will disagree with you.

As an example - my daughter decided to have dreads (dyed blue, no less Kids! Just you wait till you find out what your ity-bity angel is gonna get up to at some future time ). She posted a picture of herself on her Facebook page, and was deluged by screachers accusing her of stealing from black folk because she's as white as a sheet of typing paper, and dreads are black people hair (fortunately, she lives on a solid foundation of self-security so it didn't bother her).

It's these kind of people I was thinking of when I wrote earlier, not rational folk like you & me, Rowanwood.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Is this racist or creative license? (Woody Allen debate)

That's your interpretation, and I mainly agree. I'll tell you, though, that the most vocal people will disagree with you.

As an example - my daughter decided to have dreads (dyed blue, no less Kids! Just you wait till you find out what your ity-bity angel is gonna get up to at some future time ). She posted a picture of herself on her Facebook page, and was deluged by screachers accusing her of stealing from black folk because she's as white as a sheet of typing paper, and dreads are black people hair (fortunately, she lives on a solid foundation of self-security so it didn't bother her).

It's these kind of people I was thinking of when I wrote earlier, not rational folk like you & me, Rowanwood.

Well those people are f-ing crazy. And they are USUALLY guilty white people who need a hobby besides feeling bad about their heritage. It is okay to be white and like it, while still liking other cultures. But I get where the hysteria on both sides comes from, having gone through a caterpillar like transformation from one side of the crazy fence to the other and back again to where I just sit on the fence like the good hedge riding witch that I am.