Is this in the right place?

[Tenebris Umbrius Lupinus]

[Rae'ya]

Re: Is this in the right place?

I am posting this here because I can't think of anywhere else on the forum to post this. Tell me if it needs shifting.

It's probably fine here, but I'd have thought that Ceremonies and Practices would be a better spot. Or Left Hand Paths, but given the nature of the question, Ceremonies is more applicable.

I am interested in entering into the study of demonology, does anyone know how I would go about this?

There are many books and websites that can teach you about Demonology. But in general, the Lemegeton or Lesser Key of Solomon is usually the first place that most of us start. Further study into Demonology dictionaries (Michelle Belanger's is thorough and well researched) is then the easiest step. But in depth studies should take you into pre-Christian Judaic texts and medieval grimoires. If he's inclined to, Torey can give you more sources when he gets in... his Demonology knowledge is much more extensive than mine.

I don't recommend this attitude towards Demons. I also don't recommend Ceremonialist style evocation of Demons. We have discussed this practice elsewhere in the forum (take a look in the Left Hand Paths sections for some discussions about Demons), but essentially, it's disrespectful to the entities involved and liable to incur their annoyance and/or wrath. If you don't have the skill for it, then you a) wont be able to actually bind and command the Demon anyway and b) will just get yourself into trouble because some of them will retaliate if annoyed enough with you. IF you happen to have the knowledge and skill for it (which Ceremonialists train for years for), then maybe you will be able to forcibly conjure and bind a Demon, but is that what you really want to do?

[Tenebris Umbrius Lupinus]

Re: Is this in the right place?

Regarding my ability to command demons: I was once possessed by an entity that I asked into my body to answer some questions for a friend (I was young and foolish) and it had the feel of a demon or similar. I ended up forcibly casting it out. I can control what I summon and if I can't, then I shall face the consequences.

As for the respectfulness of an evocation, if I am able to conjure and bind a demon, then my bindings will of course contain a clause regarding retaliation and continuing consequences. I have given this some thought, and summoning, binding, and commanding such a powerful, wise, and noble being as a demon is exactly what I want to do. Basically I hope to use demons to learn the true names of gods who I can then summon and command. Hubris, I know, yet I fully accept that this might kill or destroy me and I care not. Thanks for the help, I will definitely read those books carefully and I hope Torey can lend a bit of advice as well. Call me stupid, call me insane, but I know my ambitions and I will follow them at my own risk. Thanks again though.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Is this in the right place?

Regarding my ability to command demons: I was once possessed by an entity that I asked into my body to answer some questions for a friend (I was young and foolish) and it had the feel of a demon or similar. I ended up forcibly casting it out. I can control what I summon and if I can't, then I shall face the consequences.

Have you ever met an actual Demon? One of the Goetia, for example? As opposed to an opportunistic spirit or lesser entity (which are usually the ones involved in the sort of scenario you describe above).

Also, are you aware that there are other ways to work with Demons and gain their aid? You don't have to forcibly conjure, bind and command them. If you think they are powerful, wise and noble then why do you want to forcibly bind them? Or any deity, for that matter? If this is what you want to do then it's on your head if you get bitten, but I just want to make sure that you are aware of the alternatives.

[Tenebris Umbrius Lupinus]

Re: Is this in the right place?

I am aware, I am just an arrogant and hard headed fool who has a plan that will probably end in woe. On my head be it indeed. I wish to command those being more powerful than myself because of my unending hubris and my bizarre obsession with controlling the world around me. As for the names of the spirits I have spoken with, the environment in which we speak is one where the use of true names would be a bad idea (the reality listens and watches) so I cannot name them. I also cannot describe them because I only heard their voices, their true forms would have driven me mad and even the bits that seeped through were as brilliant as the sun. So yes, I know of some of the alternatives, most are better, but I am fool enough that I will carry on regardless simply because that is the path I chose for myself. As you say, on my head, soul, and heart be it.

One reason I carry on regardless is that I have already entered a pact with the personifications of the prime elements of the material and ethereal planes for them to receive my soul and power once I die a death of old age at no less than 100 years old in exchange for their service from three months after my 21st birthday. This makes me want to find ways of commanding them beyond my bargain so that I can hold them to it. Crazy, stupid and arrogant, I know. Yet such it is.

[Medusa]

Re: Is this in the right place?

One reason I carry on regardless is that I have already entered a pact with the personifications of the prime elements of the material and ethereal planes for them to receive my soul and power once I die a death of old age at no less than 100 years old in exchange for their service from three months after my 21st birthday. This makes me want to find ways of commanding them beyond my bargain so that I can hold them to it. Crazy, stupid and arrogant, I know. Yet such it is.

wut. Do you have this in writing. It don't count in court if it's not written.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Is this in the right place?

One reason I carry on regardless is that I have already entered a pact with the personifications of the prime elements of the material and ethereal planes for them to receive my soul and power once I die a death of old age at no less than 100 years old in exchange for their service from three months after my 21st birthday. This makes me want to find ways of commanding them beyond my bargain so that I can hold them to it. Crazy, stupid and arrogant, I know. Yet such it is.

So if you die at 101 the elements get a real bum deal, maybe write in that after a hundred they get like %25 of the power? That seems more fair, also don't try and command them beyond the bargain, they are the elements right? So if you do that couldn't water like, decide to flood your neighbourhood? The property damage would be insane and you would sell whatever property you have at a significant loss to your original purchase price for sure. Also Medusa is right, you gotta make another meeting and get this stuff down on paper so if you ever need to provide proof of the bargain you can provide the papers. For sure.

Oh I get it, they'll let you live till 100. That still seems like you're getting the better deal here.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Is this in the right place?

I am aware, I am just an arrogant and hard headed fool who has a plan that will probably end in woe. On my head be it indeed. I wish to command those being more powerful than myself because of my unending hubris and my bizarre obsession with controlling the world around me. As for the names of the spirits I have spoken with, the environment in which we speak is one where the use of true names would be a bad idea (the reality listens and watches) so I cannot name them. I also cannot describe them because I only heard their voices, their true forms would have driven me mad and even the bits that seeped through were as brilliant as the sun. So yes, I know of some of the alternatives, most are better, but I am fool enough that I will carry on regardless simply because that is the path I chose for myself. As you say, on my head, soul, and heart be it.

Arrogant and hard headed aren't really the words I'd use, but it's your life.

Honestly, you'd probably be better off posing this question in a Ceremonialist community. All are welcome here at PF, but most of our active members who have ceremonial leanings are either non-theist, or Demonolators. Which means that we can't (or won't) help you forcibly conjure and bind any deity or Demon.

[Corvus]

Re: Is this in the right place?

It's my opinion this is just a bad idea. The demons you speak of are essentially gods in their own right who are difficult if not impossible to truly subjugate. When (and it is when not if) they break it (assuming you even can bind them) well.. there's a certain owl headed demon who's notorious for what he does to mages who summon him. These beings are older than human imagination and they've probably seen magicians like you try and fail numerous times to control them. They have experience in dealing with this spanning centuries. You are only human, they are not. Powerful spiritual entities are to be worked with, worshiped, or left alone, and are not to be trifled with by those with ill intent.

You know, you could just try asking nicely for what you want. It's far easier, and MUCH safer, to work with entities rather than enslave them if possible. Many demons are actually pretty nice guys (though some are again better left alone) but given how your posts sound, I doubt they'd be willing to work with you in your current mindset. Humans are not gods, some could argue they can be or in time might become some but, as a human you are not a god and it is important to realize that distinction when working with creatures plainly more powerful than yourself.

[Torey]

Re: Is this in the right place?

I have nothing further to add to this conversation other than you have no idea of the Power that you're truly dealing with here. I won't waste my time.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Is this in the right place?

Actually I don't think the original poster is 'arrogant and hard headed' as he described. Just a bit of an immature silly sod really.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Is this in the right place?

Regarding my ability to command demons: I was once possessed by an entity that I asked into my body to answer some questions for a friend (I was young and foolish) and it had the feel of a demon or similar. I ended up forcibly casting it out. I can control what I summon and if I can't, then I shall face the consequences.

As for the respectfulness of an evocation, if I am able to conjure and bind a demon, then my bindings will of course contain a clause regarding retaliation and continuing consequences. I have given this some thought, and summoning, binding, and commanding such a powerful, wise, and noble being as a demon is exactly what I want to do. Basically I hope to use demons to learn the true names of gods who I can then summon and command. Hubris, I know, yet I fully accept that this might kill or destroy me and I care not. Thanks for the help, I will definitely read those books carefully and I hope Torey can lend a bit of advice as well. Call me stupid, call me insane, but I know my ambitions and I will follow them at my own risk. Thanks again though.

I don't ping on much when it comes to ceremonial practices but the bolded aspect just jumped out at me. Felt like a demon, that very sentiment to me indicates or suggests you had a lemures or imp or some other such gutter critter of no power and little presence. Sorry one thing I did learn is those that are higher and more intelligent do not feel like trash and if one had to assign descriptors they usually fall into something like being stalked by a tiger or powerful / cunning predator or in the presence of an super intelligence. At a minimum an imposing presence of power and strength.

Of course the conjuring and binding of a demon tells me your only playing with puppets. Even the oldest grimores and such tell us you don't command or bind the truly powerful of the demonic host at best you bribe them and hope your contract is enough that you don't get taken out or tricked in the process. Only the itty bitty ones get bound like your talking about.

[Shahaku]

Re: Is this in the right place?

I am aware, I am just an arrogant and hard headed fool who has a plan that will probably end in woe. On my head be it indeed. I wish to command those being more powerful than myself because of my unending hubris and my bizarre obsession with controlling the world around me. As for the names of the spirits I have spoken with, the environment in which we speak is one where the use of true names would be a bad idea (the reality listens and watches) so I cannot name them. I also cannot describe them because I only heard their voices, their true forms would have driven me mad and even the bits that seeped through were as brilliant as the sun. So yes, I know of some of the alternatives, most are better, but I am fool enough that I will carry on regardless simply because that is the path I chose for myself. As you say, on my head, soul, and heart be it.

One reason I carry on regardless is that I have already entered a pact with the personifications of the prime elements of the material and ethereal planes for them to receive my soul and power once I die a death of old age at no less than 100 years old in exchange for their service from three months after my 21st birthday. This makes me want to find ways of commanding them beyond my bargain so that I can hold them to it. Crazy, stupid and arrogant, I know. Yet such it is.

You have to realize that many, many people in the pagan community believe that "Demons" are Christianized gods. There are links and ties that prove this. The gods of one religion would be demonized by Christians in an effort to make the believers see how wrong their faith was. After all, they were worshipping demons. If you come at this from a pagan prospective, you have to realize that means you are trying to bind the gods themselves. I highly do not recommend this. Why do you think you are more likely to get what you want through binding than by politely asking the appropriate deity and working toward your goal? No consequence, to retaliation/revenge for that.

You are diving headfirst into a situation, damn the consequences. Even if I was fully pulled into believing your 100 year bargain, it is still extremely foolish. You are talking about a potential of decades of retaliation in ways you can't imagine. Which means you won't be able to full protect yourself. Even when people think they've covered all the basis, they realize later they haven't and you know what? All stories of people doing things like this end in regret. It is acting with a near insane disregard for your own well being.

To think yourself more powerful than the gods? I shudder.

[Heka]

....... once I die a death of old age at no less than 100 years old in exchange for their service from three months after my 21st birthday.

So you're under 21 then...? Which means by default you haven't researched or experienced anywhere near enough to undertake any kind of ceremonialist workings.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Is this in the right place?

Why would a demon have a True Name that can be successfully used against a god?

You're talking about information closely guarded within the pantheon of the god in question. Why would a Power either outside of or in some cases opposed to a given pantheon possess such knowledge? Isis had to poison Ra to get his name from him iirc. You know any specific demons who poisoned a god to blackmail their name out. This is a risky move to acquire data that might not be available.