Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 23

Thread: What's the difference between the two?

  1. #11
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,609
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    I'd say the key feature is that Druid is a caste within the Celtic culture. Seldom is it an individual but almost a priest like system with multiple individuals. In most Shamanic situations it is an individual that many times is selected by Spirit or an elder and is trained one on one. In a great many first nation or aboriginal systems there is only one practitioner per group and perhaps a student under study. In many instances located outside of the social order and functions as an extra guide / adviser between the group and the spirit world. A critical aspect being that the shaman functions within the spiritual / religious functionality of the people they serve and advise.

    I'd think the manner of being selected is often quite different between those of a Druid and that of a Shaman. Figure Druidic wise one may be born into the caste of the Druid and be slated for that pathway or one may under neo-Druidism pursue entry into it. In most instances Shaman are not born into a shamanic lineage but most importantly have to experience a physical death, shamanic sickness / illness or some other extraordinary event. While Neo-shamanism allows for self selection and self identification it is the exception vice the rule found in first nation and aboriginal peoples.

    There is some similarity in that the Druid and Shaman can be focused towards healing but does not have to be. Consider the warrior shaman who would go on raids or into battle with the warrior class overseeing the psychological aspects of preparation for battle and death. Then you had the shamanic individual that served in a fertility / fecundity aspect using their skills and gifts for the welfare of their own people but would employ them against another people to undermine or destroy the fertility / fecundity of an opponent. One also might discover the shaman whose sole purpose was to read and interact with the hidden spirit world and utilize that knowledge in guiding / advising why herds vanished, crops failed, why allies and such were causing illness / death but not being seen in a healer capacity.

    In my experience the only people who claim them to be the same or closely similar are those who compare the neo aspects of Shamanism and Druidry. Usually at the expense of ignoring the cultural, social, functional and spiritual roles each played and how they were fitted into the social fabric. Especially the aspect of their being a unified druidic notion and authority listed in many older texts and stories that is never found in shamanic references and records. One of the reasons I suppose so many say it was such an easy task for the Druids to be incorporated into the Celtic Church when you look to Ireland for instance or some Britanic references, perhaps even some Welsh stories.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  2. #12
    Member
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    25
    Gender
    female
    Location
    Belgium
    Phrase
    Don't turn around. That thing standing right behind you will only get pissed off.

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I wonder why that member said such a thing. It does sound degrading. Did he expand on that?
    Nope. Not at all. Must've been an elitist who didn't like being compared to those "barbaric" shamans.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    I'd say the key feature is that Druid is a caste within the Celtic culture. Seldom is it an individual but almost a priest like system with multiple individuals. In most Shamanic situations it is an individual that many times is selected by Spirit or an elder and is trained one on one. In a great many first nation or aboriginal systems there is only one practitioner per group and perhaps a student under study. In many instances located outside of the social order and functions as an extra guide / adviser between the group and the spirit world. A critical aspect being that the shaman functions within the spiritual / religious functionality of the people they serve and advise.

    I'd think the manner of being selected is often quite different between those of a Druid and that of a Shaman. Figure Druidic wise one may be born into the caste of the Druid and be slated for that pathway or one may under neo-Druidism pursue entry into it. In most instances Shaman are not born into a shamanic lineage but most importantly have to experience a physical death, shamanic sickness / illness or some other extraordinary event. While Neo-shamanism allows for self selection and self identification it is the exception vice the rule found in first nation and aboriginal peoples.

    There is some similarity in that the Druid and Shaman can be focused towards healing but does not have to be. Consider the warrior shaman who would go on raids or into battle with the warrior class overseeing the psychological aspects of preparation for battle and death. Then you had the shamanic individual that served in a fertility / fecundity aspect using their skills and gifts for the welfare of their own people but would employ them against another people to undermine or destroy the fertility / fecundity of an opponent. One also might discover the shaman whose sole purpose was to read and interact with the hidden spirit world and utilize that knowledge in guiding / advising why herds vanished, crops failed, why allies and such were causing illness / death but not being seen in a healer capacity.

    In my experience the only people who claim them to be the same or closely similar are those who compare the neo aspects of Shamanism and Druidry. Usually at the expense of ignoring the cultural, social, functional and spiritual roles each played and how they were fitted into the social fabric. Especially the aspect of their being a unified druidic notion and authority listed in many older texts and stories that is never found in shamanic references and records. One of the reasons I suppose so many say it was such an easy task for the Druids to be incorporated into the Celtic Church when you look to Ireland for instance or some Britanic references, perhaps even some Welsh stories.
    Thank you.

  3. #13
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    11,218
    Religion
    relational theophysis and bioregional witchery
    Location
    coastal Georgia
    Phrase
    *a little bad taste is like a nice dash of paprika*

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Azvanna View Post
    I wonder why that member said such a thing. It does sound degrading. Did he expand on that?

    I can't say in this instance, without knowing the context of the statement, or more about the person in general...but primitive isn't always an insult.



    And with that being said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ticklebits View Post
    Hahaha I cant believe there's actually a thread here. I have this argument all the time with my boyfriend. He thinks there's some difference (thanks world of warcraft) and then theres me going "omg babe, druids are just celtic shamans!" But thats what I find attractive about shamanism, its a simple, foundational term that explains a core element of some spiritual practice. The word itself came from Siberia. If the word hadnt evolved into something more generalized we'd all be talking about russian shamanism (and I dont think that is the case).

    Druids are no more "just Celtic shaman" than a priest of ancient Rome or Greece would be a Roman or Greek shaman.

    Certainly, there is now a strong vein of Celtic (usually core) shamanism in modern Druidry, but not every Druid incorporates shamanic practices in their practice, and its a long way (IMO) between adopting shamanic practices and legitimately calling oneself a shaman.

    The ancient Druids were a priesthood (and here I'll totally disagree with Monsno)--there is not enough enough actual archaeological evidence to say whether or not that priesthood was a priestly caste or a priestly order (or a mix of the two, in which one could be called in, or called out of service). Further more, we don't know enough about Druid practices to say whether or not they were shamanic in nature or not, whether in total or in part. This is no different than, say...the priestly caste/culture of the Mississippan culture in the Americas. We have ideas, we have suppositions, we have tons of wishful thinking (on both ends of the stick), and we have very little evidence that clearly supports any one line of thinking.


    This question is sort of like asking what's the difference between music and hockey.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  4. #14
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,609
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    .. The ancient Druids were a priesthood (and here I'll totally disagree with Monsno)--there is not enough enough actual archaeological evidence to say whether or not that priesthood was a priestly caste or a priestly order (or a mix of the two, in which one could be called in, or called out of service). Further more, we don't know enough about Druid practices to say whether or not they were shamanic in nature or not, whether in total or in part. This is no different than, say...the priestly caste/culture of the Mississippan culture in the Americas. We have ideas, we have suppositions, we have tons of wishful thinking (on both ends of the stick), and we have very little evidence that clearly supports any one line of thinking.


    This question is sort of like asking what's the difference between music and hockey.
    I can agree with and support that. It's all subjective I suppose with the limited info we actually have as to whether it was a cast, calling or society.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  5. #15
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    2,938
    Gender
    male
    Religion
    Kemetic reconstructionist, I guess... Solitary. devotee of Djehuty and Bast
    Location
    In my reality
    Phrase
    Rawr

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    I'd say the key feature is that Druid is a caste within the Celtic culture. Seldom is it an individual but almost a priest like system with multiple individuals. In most Shamanic situations it is an individual that many times is selected by Spirit or an elder and is trained one on one. In a great many first nation or aboriginal systems there is only one practitioner per group and perhaps a student under study. In many instances located outside of the social order and functions as an extra guide / adviser between the group and the spirit world. A critical aspect being that the shaman functions within the spiritual / religious functionality of the people they serve and advise.

    I'd think the manner of being selected is often quite different between those of a Druid and that of a Shaman. Figure Druidic wise one may be born into the caste of the Druid and be slated for that pathway or one may under neo-Druidism pursue entry into it. In most instances Shaman are not born into a shamanic lineage but most importantly have to experience a physical death, shamanic sickness / illness or some other extraordinary event. While Neo-shamanism allows for self selection and self identification it is the exception vice the rule found in first nation and aboriginal peoples.

    There is some similarity in that the Druid and Shaman can be focused towards healing but does not have to be. Consider the warrior shaman who would go on raids or into battle with the warrior class overseeing the psychological aspects of preparation for battle and death. Then you had the shamanic individual that served in a fertility / fecundity aspect using their skills and gifts for the welfare of their own people but would employ them against another people to undermine or destroy the fertility / fecundity of an opponent. One also might discover the shaman whose sole purpose was to read and interact with the hidden spirit world and utilize that knowledge in guiding / advising why herds vanished, crops failed, why allies and such were causing illness / death but not being seen in a healer capacity.

    In my experience the only people who claim them to be the same or closely similar are those who compare the neo aspects of Shamanism and Druidry. Usually at the expense of ignoring the cultural, social, functional and spiritual roles each played and how they were fitted into the social fabric. Especially the aspect of their being a unified druidic notion and authority listed in many older texts and stories that is never found in shamanic references and records. One of the reasons I suppose so many say it was such an easy task for the Druids to be incorporated into the Celtic Church when you look to Ireland for instance or some Britanic references, perhaps even some Welsh stories.
    Tanks for your input, Monsno_leedra!
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

  6. #16
    Member Ticklebits's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    28
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Northern Germanic Paganism/Rokkatru
    Location
    Washington

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    I'd say the key feature is that Druid is a caste within the Celtic culture. Seldom is it an individual but almost a priest like system with multiple individuals. In most Shamanic situations it is an individual that many times is selected by Spirit or an elder and is trained one on one. In a great many first nation or aboriginal systems there is only one practitioner per group and perhaps a student under study. In many instances located outside of the social order and functions as an extra guide / adviser between the group and the spirit world. A critical aspect being that the shaman functions within the spiritual / religious functionality of the people they serve and advise.

    I'd think the manner of being selected is often quite different between those of a Druid and that of a Shaman. Figure Druidic wise one may be born into the caste of the Druid and be slated for that pathway or one may under neo-Druidism pursue entry into it. In most instances Shaman are not born into a shamanic lineage but most importantly have to experience a physical death, shamanic sickness / illness or some other extraordinary event. While Neo-shamanism allows for self selection and self identification it is the exception vice the rule found in first nation and aboriginal peoples.

    There is some similarity in that the Druid and Shaman can be focused towards healing but does not have to be. Consider the warrior shaman who would go on raids or into battle with the warrior class overseeing the psychological aspects of preparation for battle and death. Then you had the shamanic individual that served in a fertility / fecundity aspect using their skills and gifts for the welfare of their own people but would employ them against another people to undermine or destroy the fertility / fecundity of an opponent. One also might discover the shaman whose sole purpose was to read and interact with the hidden spirit world and utilize that knowledge in guiding / advising why herds vanished, crops failed, why allies and such were causing illness / death but not being seen in a healer capacity.

    In my experience the only people who claim them to be the same or closely similar are those who compare the neo aspects of Shamanism and Druidry. Usually at the expense of ignoring the cultural, social, functional and spiritual roles each played and how they were fitted into the social fabric. Especially the aspect of their being a unified druidic notion and authority listed in many older texts and stories that is never found in shamanic references and records. One of the reasons I suppose so many say it was such an easy task for the Druids to be incorporated into the Celtic Church when you look to Ireland for instance or some Britanic references, perhaps even some Welsh stories.
    The only comparison you made was manner of selection. That certainly doesn't constitute calling them completely different. The rest was all just random information that referred to both druidry and shamanism in a non-comparative fashion. Then you end your statement by theorizing that only neo-druidry/shamanism can be called similiar (despite having just used "similar" to describe an aspect of both druidry and shamanism in an above paragraph) without ever stating which incredibly specific version of either YOU were originally going on about. I, for one, would be enormously curious to hear how "shaman" is being defined in this context because the word itself was mostly invented to describe a method of practice and not a religion.

    Fyi: All of this snobbery looks like nothing more than nonsense to anyone outside of your elite club.

  7. #17
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,609
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ticklebits View Post
    The only comparison you made was manner of selection. That certainly doesn't constitute calling them completely different. The rest was all just random information that referred to both druidry and shamanism in a non-comparative fashion. Then you end your statement by theorizing that only neo-druidry/shamanism can be called similiar (despite having just used "similar" to describe an aspect of both druidry and shamanism in an above paragraph) without ever stating which incredibly specific version of either YOU were originally going on about. I, for one, would be enormously curious to hear how "shaman" is being defined in this context because the word itself was mostly invented to describe a method of practice and not a religion.

    Fyi: All of this snobbery looks like nothing more than nonsense to anyone outside of your elite club.
    Nope not snobbery at all. As to definition and usage here I use the generic common definition, with those who are actually shamanic in practice an nature I tend to use words specific to a given nation or practice. That your trying to make druidry shamanic or equal to it does nothing to change the fact they are vastly different in application, selection and utilization from the word go.

    Sorry don't pull the pathetic 21 Lesson of Merlin crap on me as to it being shamanic regardless of which name you try apply to the practice and world view of those who practice it.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

  8. #18
    Member Ticklebits's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    28
    Gender
    female
    Religion
    Northern Germanic Paganism/Rokkatru
    Location
    Washington

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    Nope not snobbery at all. As to definition and usage here I use the generic common definition, with those who are actually shamanic in practice an nature I tend to use words specific to a given nation or practice. That your trying to make druidry shamanic or equal to it does nothing to change the fact they are vastly different in application, selection and utilization from the word go.

    Sorry don't pull the pathetic 21 Lesson of Merlin crap on me as to it being shamanic regardless of which name you try apply to the practice and world view of those who practice it.
    Yes and again a lot of words and not much said. Still no explanation or actual definition. Hard to refute nothing, or come to any understanding for that matter, which effectively renders my part in this little debate over.

  9. #19
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    10,896
    Religion
    stregheria

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    I really think the only real difference is concerning to the two groups. If you are druid,or shaman the difference is plain,if you do not belong to ether group then you have no real need to wonder.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

  10. #20
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
    Reputation
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    2,609
    Religion
    Shamanic Practitioner & Green / Hedge Witch with Hellenic leanings
    Location
    West Virginia
    Phrase
    Can't never did nothing till it tried!

    Re: What's the difference between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ticklebits View Post
    Yes and again a lot of words and not much said. Still no explanation or actual definition. Hard to refute nothing, or come to any understanding for that matter, which effectively renders my part in this little debate over.
    But to give you what your asking you first would have to undergo all the test and such. First you got to die. A physical death where you cross the veil between life and death, meet your ancestors and many times have to decide if your going to come back. May occur at any point but for many first nation and aboriginal peoples is occurs during youth and is a sign to the elders that you've been touched and selected by the spirits. Then you'll probably have the shamanic illness that goes with it though sometimes it occurs as part of the death aspect. usually an illness so severe you'll not be suspected of being able to survive it. After that you also get the shamanic death in the spirit world where you'll be ripped apart by your guides. A lovely process where you are torn asunder as the parts are torn out and reformed or replaced. Really a lovely experience as your body shows the physical welts, bands and such where you were torn apart, and lets not forget the fact you feel and suffer the pain of it even though it occurs in the spiritual world.

    Then that just gets you noticed it doesn't mean you'll be selected to be trained or will become a spirit walker / shaman / medicine person / hedge rider or a thousand other names for a similar type position in the society. Nor does it mean which aspect you'll be groomed for and the lovely tests and such that come with that. It's not like Odin on the tree sacrificing an eye to learn the runes. NO you get the mind crusher for instance where the worlds over lap and you walk in one, two some or all of them all at once. Where it truly is an example of is it real or is it fantasy. No drugs needed just friggin detached voices and faces and surreal landscapes that make up your everyday world. Almost lunatic in how it works.

    Then if your real lucky you get a teacher / elder / mentor / etc to guide you through it all. To tell you that its more than just animism / anamatism at work and acting upon you. You get the lovely sensation of being alone even in a room full of people and knowing that all the people surrounding you are not living nor of this world. Then you get the lovely sense of shamanic time distortion where where your at is not always when your at. The mind screw where all are talking potentially to you but they fade in and out like some corrupt drug induced state, except again no drugs there just Spirit screwing with your mind and trying to see if you puke, toss in the towel and collapse under the mental strain.

    And it still doesn't mean your selected for many are tested and few are chosen. So you go through the death misses, those events where your weighted and your life is left to the visions or presence of someone else. For me lovely things, my sister died I died shortly there after, My parents decide to go somewhere last second grandparents refuse to let me go my carseat is crushed beneath the passenger seat, a bullet flies through the air and passes next to me and an old black man stops my mother and me from entering a bank as the robbers come out in a hail of bullets, the list goes on and on or near misses or physical injury. Not counting dead relatives who appear and tell you not to go a certain way less you die only to discover the one who warned you died the day you were born. That also tends not to touch upon experiencing the death of another regardless of which of the peoples they happen to be.

    People like to equate the notion of shape-shifting, shift-shaping with berserker or skin walker and claim a similarity there. Yet just because some practitioners wear a regalia to connect with their allies and guides its not the same. Especially in the sense of mentally or physically becoming that ally or guide and experiencing life through its senses, form, etc. Yep more than just putting a skin on and taking a drug to make you feel like that creature. Especially screwed up when your forms don't come back together just right and your an animal in a human body or a human in an animal form.

    All of that before I turned 17. Every single bit i'd give up in a heart beat but not given the option. Yet punished to the extreme every time you try to ignore or refuse it.

    Just because so many think they can select to become something from a book doesn't mean its true or real. Just because some one said hey these things have a lot of anamism / anamatism aspects that are similar they are the same and call it core shamanism doesn't make you a Spirit walker / hedge ridge / world traveler or any of the names used with it.

    Druidry the same as shamanism in the first nation or aboriginal aspect not even close. But so many new agey authors love to compare and sort of contrast to make it seem they are the same while ignoring nearly every cultural, social, psychological and spiritual / religious aspect that drives them.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

Similar Threads

  1. What is the difference between ''Neopaganism'' and ''Paganism''.
    By Wonder in forum Pagan Traditions & Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 25 Sep 2014, 05:55
  2. Science vs Religion: Whats the difference?
    By thalassa in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 20 Aug 2013, 06:11
  3. How do I tell the Difference?
    By Lilium of the Valley in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 84
    Last Post: 03 Jun 2013, 15:54
  4. Difference between Archetype and God?
    By westwoden in forum Catacombs
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 28 Dec 2012, 14:43

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •