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Thread: Age in Wicca

  1. #11
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    I don't think I've ever been accused of being fluffy. A couple other things certainly but never fluffy.

    Shrug, anyway, fluffy is not meant to be a reference to age by most people who use it but idiots will always exist and one of the examples in the OP is throwing stones from the battlements of a very fragile looking glass house.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  2. #12
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here...

    Stereotypes exist for a reason. I've been Pagan of one kind or another for over 20 years now, since I was a preteen. I can't even begin to tell you how many teen and pretteen newbies come and go (IRL) as pagans. It doesnt surprise me that people often don't take them seriously or respect them when jjust as often many of them aren't doing anything to be taken seriously or to earn any respect either.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  3. #13
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here...

    Stereotypes exist for a reason. I've been Pagan of one kind or another for over 20 years now, since I was a preteen. I can't even begin to tell you how many teen and pretteen newbies come and go (IRL) as pagans. It doesnt surprise me that people often don't take them seriously or respect them when jjust as often many of them aren't doing anything to be taken seriously or to earn any respect either.
    ^ this is a valid* point from people who've demonstrated the dedication and intellect to be taken seriously (Thal, of course, has). One of the examples given though was still throwing hefty rocks from a house with rather fragile (and transparent) looking walls.

    *Note that while I consider the point valid, I don't consider it a get out of manners free card. I may expect lots of things for lots of reasons. It is still incumbent upon me to base my behaviour on specific facts not on general assumptions.
    "It is not simply enough to know the light…a Jedi must feel the tension between the two sides of the Force…in himself and in the universe."
    ―Thon

    "When to the Force you truly give yourself, all you do expresses the truth of who you are,"

    Yoda

    Yoda told stories, and ate, and cried, and laughed: and the Padawans saw that life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis



  4. #14
    Dragon Lady Yorin's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Personally I've never really considered the fluffy pagans as necessarily the whole "love light and all" stuff, but more the "zomg I'm a witch, I can turn into a werewolf" or cast actual fireballs, or all of the generally ~fluff~ magic that most of us chuckle at then shake our heads and a few of us in the back of our minds go "I almost wish that was real" but we know its not.

    For me, I've rooted myself along an eclectic pagan path for about 6-7 years now honestly, and I more got the fear from the adults around me of what was going to happen to me if I stayed on it, rather than a "oh you're just a kid, I've been practicing longer than you've been alive" mentality. But then again, I lived in a heavy monotheistic town with 10 churches for maybe 5000 people
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  5. #15
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by MaskedOne View Post
    *Note that while I consider the point valid, I don't consider it a get out of manners free card. I may expect lots of things for lots of reasons. It is still incumbent upon me to base my behaviour on specific facts not on general assumptions.
    I completely agree that its no reason to a) be rude or b) be condescending---its not an excuse for bad behavior. I think though, its understandable of a reason (in general, not necessairly in this instance) for some of the criticism towards this demographic--mayhap something like what is discussed here. Adolesence is a period of great change. Its not that they are flakey, they are just changing and growing at a really rapid pace--socially, psychologically, neurologically, ect. They might not see it that way, but those of us that have gone through it already can...and sometimes (more often than not) some of us (most of us) forget what it is like.

    I have called many things (ideas, concepts, even practices) fluffy in my time, but I don't think I've called a person fluffy in quite some time (sadly, I've thought it for an uncharitable moment or three a time or ten). And, when I have, its usually been something along these lines-- http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/fluffy.shtml Those things which are often deemed "fluffy" have nothing to do with age as a number, and more to do with immaturity (and the problem of young=immature, as previously mentioned, isn't just a Pagan thing).
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  6. #16
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    In my opinion, age really doesn't matter. Not only in Wicca. But in every other religion. Because one person can have a totally different experience from another. Without any connection to their age. As it was pointed out already, teens are often not taken seriously. But those people who judge according to the age of the person are simply not right. It's true that with age comes experience, but a younger person can have something that an older person can not. The same thing can happen otherwise too.
    So for me, judging only by the age is pointless. I look (not judge) on the years of participation in a religion.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



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  7. #17
    Silver Member monsno_leedra's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleb View Post
    In my opinion, age really doesn't matter. Not only in Wicca. But in every other religion. Because one person can have a totally different experience from another. Without any connection to their age. As it was pointed out already, teens are often not taken seriously. But those people who judge according to the age of the person are simply not right. It's true that with age comes experience, but a younger person can have something that an older person can not. The same thing can happen otherwise too.
    So for me, judging only by the age is pointless. I look (not judge) on the years of participation in a religion.
    For a lot of covens and people age is a judgement factor of legality not capability. In many ways its also tied to culpability and accountability of actions and acceptance of it. Figure as a minor you (collective usage) can screw up pretty much anything and you'll not be held to the same degree of libel as an adult or person of age. It sucks but its still a fact and many will continue to consider teens as not being culpable or accountable therefor not equal to those who have to assume accountability and culpability for all they do.
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  8. #18
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    For a lot of covens and people age is a judgement factor of legality not capability. In many ways its also tied to culpability and accountability of actions and acceptance of it. Figure as a minor you (collective usage) can screw up pretty much anything and you'll not be held to the same degree of libel as an adult or person of age. It sucks but its still a fact and many will continue to consider teens as not being culpable or accountable therefor not equal to those who have to assume accountability and culpability for all they do.
    It's their own decision. This how it works in Wicca, I guess. Correct me if I'm wrong here. I have no problem with it.
    I'm Kemetic, and my view was written by my own thoughts. My knowledge about Wicca is very limited. In Kemetism it works differently. So I will just leave it as it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    But on the other hand, I would like to know more about how it works in Wicca.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

  9. #19
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by Gleb View Post
    But on the other hand, I would like to know more about how it works in Wicca.
    You mean in terms of age?

    In traditional Wicca, as Gerald Gardner founded it, there was ritual nudity and even ritual sex...even in those lineages or covens where ritual sex or is no longer literal sex, there are lots of sex themes in the Wheel of the Year and other aspects of Wiccan mythology/liturgy. Combine that with the nudity aspect (though a number of groups have gone away from this too), you can see why having legal minors in a group might be problematic. Also, there's the bit about consent and parents...in some groups, where parents are also part of the group its okay for underage practitioners, and in some its been okay with written or verbal permission at a particular age that might be older than the legal majority, but other groups just don't want the headache of some kid whose parents find out they are *omg* "practicing witchcraft" (read worshipping the devil) and threaten all sorts of police and whatnot. Many Pagans aren't "out of the broom closet" since they live in conservative areas or work as nurses or teachers, etc...a parent throwing a fit over their minor child could seriously ruin the lives of a number of people in the wrong community.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  10. #20
    Cat Freak Gleb's Avatar
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    Re: Age in Wicca

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    You mean in terms of age?

    In traditional Wicca, as Gerald Gardner founded it, there was ritual nudity and even ritual sex...even in those lineages or covens where ritual sex or is no longer literal sex, there are lots of sex themes in the Wheel of the Year and other aspects of Wiccan mythology/liturgy. Combine that with the nudity aspect (though a number of groups have gone away from this too), you can see why having legal minors in a group might be problematic. Also, there's the bit about consent and parents...in some groups, where parents are also part of the group its okay for underage practitioners, and in some its been okay with written or verbal permission at a particular age that might be older than the legal majority, but other groups just don't want the headache of some kid whose parents find out they are *omg* "practicing witchcraft" (read worshipping the devil) and threaten all sorts of police and whatnot. Many Pagans aren't "out of the broom closet" since they live in conservative areas or work as nurses or teachers, etc...a parent throwing a fit over their minor child could seriously ruin the lives of a number of people in the wrong community.
    Yeah, I meant in age. Thanks for sharing, Thal! But what about the other experiences in Wicca that don't involve nudity and sex? I wouldn't assume that minors / teenagers have a restricted access to the materials of the religion.
    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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