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    #16
    Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

    I sort of expect Scotland to be militarily protected for the same reason that throwing potshots at Canada is unhealthy. The Royal Navy has about as much desire to see hostile powers make landfall on those Isles as the US has to see an enemy share a land border and while the UK may not hit quite as hard as the US can, it is still a lethal power before factoring nukes (and it has those too).
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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      #17
      Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

      Scotland - before and after it became part of England's burgeoning empire - had a history of wars against England and of sheltering others who did. In fact the last battle fought on British soil was in 1745, long after the act of Union, at the Battle of Culloden Moor. The Battle of Culloden might have been won by the English, but believe me Scotland was a formidable enemy always.

      As for nukes...the UK is TINY! Nukes between England and Scotland wouldn't make any sense at all, it would be suicide for both sides.
      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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        #18
        Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

        Scotland had been an Independent Country for many many centuries.

        It could be that again!

        Comment

          #19
          Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

          Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
          Scotland - before and after it became part of England's burgeoning empire - had a history of wars against England and of sheltering others who did. In fact the last battle fought on British soil was in 1745, long after the act of Union, at the Battle of Culloden Moor. The Battle of Culloden might have been won by the English, but believe me Scotland was a formidable enemy always.

          As for nukes...the UK is TINY! Nukes between England and Scotland wouldn't make any sense at all, it would be suicide for both sides.
          I was thinking more in terms of protection from nations that aren't the UK. If Scotland needs to defend itself militarily from the UK within the first 5-10 years of its independence then I expect them to have a horrifically bad day without any nukes being involved at all. The UK has a very large head start on equipping and using a modern military. Scotland will be playing catch up there for a while.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment

            #20
            Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

            I suspect that Scotland has a head start when it comes to diplomacy I'm not sure it would have to defend itself against other countries outside the UK either. Come to that, I can't really understand the jingoistic language that has been going on in the west lately. It sounds to me as though someone somewhere is just itching to start a war...
            www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


            Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

            Comment

              #21
              Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

              Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
              I can't really understand the jingoistic language that has been going on in the west lately. It sounds to me as though someone somewhere is just itching to start a war...
              Have I missed something regarding this? A family member of mine made a similar comment recently >.<
              Work hard Play hard.
              What is history?

              Comment

                #22
                Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                I suspect that Scotland has a head start when it comes to diplomacy I'm not sure it would have to defend itself against other countries outside the UK either. Come to that, I can't really understand the jingoistic language that has been going on in the west lately. It sounds to me as though someone somewhere is just itching to start a war...
                I really hope war is not necessary

                Comment

                  #23
                  Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                  Originally posted by loststarshine View Post
                  I really hope war is not necessary
                  Exempting the possibility of complete insanity from Putin, there aren't a lot of things going on that can force war on the West right now. There are ongoing wars in Eastern Europe and the Mid-East but they aren't currently going to force war with the West. The West may choose to intervene but it will be a choice. Now if Putin goes batshit crazy and starts attempting to gobble Nato members, then cans of highly concentrated, instant sunshine will start being deployed and there are some things that could happen in the Mid-East that will bring a slightly less shiny but still rather violent answer but neither scenario is exceptionally probable.
                  life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                  Comment

                    #24
                    Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                    Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                    ...Come to that, I can't really understand the jingoistic language that has been going on in the west lately. It sounds to me as though someone somewhere is just itching to start a war...
                    I'll take a shot at an answer: economy. It hasn't really righted itself and the only ones that has got anything out of this are the rich. Plus the EU is set to rip apart at the seams. What to do in such a situation? You pull a Hitler (or Stalin, or Regan or any number of national leaders who had power in time of prolonged financial depression) and create an external enemy and conflict. Gets everyone's attention off your back.

                    @Mask it's not just Ukraine or the Middle East, there are a lot of rumblings in Europe, they just rarely make the news channels. A lot of people are very, very "unhappy".
                    ust to pull someone out of my hat (and with marginal relevance to the OP) the Basque. They want independence from Spain (I believe the Basque leader want to hold a trial vote sometime after the Scottish one). If the Scots do vote for independence the situation in Spain could very well grow a lot worse since the Spanish government absolutely refuses to give the Basque any more independence than they have. (Add to that the sky high poverty and unemployment in Spain and you have a good recipe for a powder barrel waiting for a spark.)
                    Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

                    An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

                    "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                      Originally posted by Carlin View Post
                      I'm in Scotland and I'm voting yes. I'm doing so because I want our country to be able to run itself, not be run by another country's government that doesn't know much about living in Scotland and doesn't care either. I also want us to get the government we vote for - we didn't vote Tory but that's what we've got anyway. The many, many other countries around the world who've gained their independence from the UK seem to be doing just fine.

                      - - - Updated - - -



                      We're not a region. I live in Lothian, that's my region - Scotland is my country.
                      Fair enough...sorry! I'm actually rooting for Scottish independence, so I should really know better!

                      As for why I'm rooting for you guys, I think it can work economically better than most people think. I get the feeling that Scotland is pretty into being part of the EU and making strong ties with other European countries. Given the souring ties between the UK and the rest of Europe, leaving the UK isn't necessarily out of Scotland's favour. Germans (people, anyway...not sure about the government's stance, to be honest), are starting to root for Scotland. Now, Europe has its problems and the Euro isn't the world's most stable currency, but it's not a sinking ship either.

                      Given the way the UK government has run its country over the last 30 years and the way it will probably continue to run its country in the future, I can totally see wanting to leave it. Hell, I know English people who wish they could somehow cut their ties with their own government. People like to talk about Scotland and its potential economy, but no one is talking about how the British are running theirs into the ground through its massive inequality problem.

                      I think Scotland has a strong backbone as far as infrastructure is concerned. It can easily take over the rest and run its own affairs.

                      As for the economy, Scotland has oil, yo. And lots of other resources. As of now, it actually sends more tax south than it receives.

                      - - - Updated - - -

                      Originally posted by Doc_Holliday View Post
                      Wanting your country to do well economically is NOT greed, it's called being conscious of your economy and the people in your nation. Oil is a huge boost if extracted right, Canada in particular has been benefiting massively from our Alberta oil fields, soon we will have rigs running in newfoundland as well. I agree however that there is no reason Scottish oil production would increase dramatically with independence unless the new government overhauls the system somehow.
                      I don't think it will extract more oil, but it will be able to benefit much more from the oil it already extracts...which is something.

                      I don't think oil is the only reason Scotland should be independent (far from it), but I do think it plays a role.

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                        The West.
                        What area are we talking about as "the west" at a guess from the context it was wrote in Russia? Why would Russia want a war if Scotland gains independence or are these unrelated incidents. I apologize for my lack of knowledge on this subject.
                        What little world news I hear about is either about Iraq, Iran, and Afganastan.

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                          Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                          I suspect that Scotland has a head start when it comes to diplomacy I'm not sure it would have to defend itself against other countries outside the UK either. Come to that, I can't really understand the jingoistic language that has been going on in the west lately. It sounds to me as though someone somewhere is just itching to start a war...
                          I can see it being more like most other European countries as well and just having an army in more of a defensive capacity rather than getting involved in pointless, expensive wars that go nowhere.

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                          Exempting the possibility of complete insanity from Putin, there aren't a lot of things going on that can force war on the West right now. There are ongoing wars in Eastern Europe and the Mid-East but they aren't currently going to force war with the West. The West may choose to intervene but it will be a choice. Now if Putin goes batshit crazy and starts attempting to gobble Nato members, then cans of highly concentrated, instant sunshine will start being deployed and there are some things that could happen in the Mid-East that will bring a slightly less shiny but still rather violent answer but neither scenario is exceptionally probable.
                          You'd be surprised how much Europe is throwing their hands up and saying "nope" to war over that stuff, though. Germany won't do it for sure. We're still reeling from our last war. Seriously...no one has forgotten it and if we went to war in the Ukraine, no one would stand for it. No one. Even the government is tiptoeing around it.

                          That being said, I AM with MoonRaven on the fact that there -is- a possibility that a war could start somewhere within the EU. Some of the stuff going on in crisis countries is unbelievable. It would just take one convincing psychopath to make some major trouble.

                          Spain is pretty unstable right now. It's not just Basque that wants independence. Catalonia is also pretty keen on it. I'm not sure the Spanish will go extremist, though. Their major movements have more to do with transparency and anti-corruption. I'm watching Greece pretty closely, though. And France (seriously, WTF France)

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                            I don't expect anyone to commit military force over Ukraine. I prefaced with Putin going batshit insane and trying to munch a member of Nato, thereby activating Article 5 and obligating aid from all Nato members. Ukraine is not part of Nato and I don't expect Putin to test Nato so directly. I was outlining a possibility where Western Europe would have to go to war instead of choosing to.
                            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                            Comment

                              #29
                              Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                              I don't expect anyone to commit military force over Ukraine. I prefaced with Putin going batshit insane and trying to munch a member of Nato, thereby activating Article 5 and obligating aid from all Nato members. Ukraine is not part of Nato and I don't expect Putin to test Nato so directly. I was outlining a possibility where Western Europe would have to go to war instead of choosing to.
                              Yeah I'm still not sure how that would play out in reality. I think that if it came to that, a lot of European leaders would still duck out, even if it meant leaving NATO. It would probably break up NATO more than it would cause war. There have been recent wars in Europe (Kosovo, etc), but going to war with Russia is not something anyone is going to do. Not in the next hundred or so years, anyway. I guess it's really hard for a North American to understand (I never really got it until I moved here), but WWII was such a scar on the land and the general psyche of the people. I'm putting Germany in a pretty high place in this because Germany is by far the most powerful country in Europe...and Germany is not going to war.

                              I also don't think Putin will go batshit crazy. The man and his government have their issues and are definitely not people I would want running my country, but Putin is not Stalin or Hitler.

                              Comment

                                #30
                                Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

                                It's stuff like this that makes me think that Scotland is not "Better Together": http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...-cuts.25192360

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