Scottish Vote for Independence

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

It's stuff like this that makes me think that Scotland is not "Better Together": http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/h...-cuts.25192360

Exactly! Scotland does not need Osborne's cuts and the Tory's policy of privatisation, yet that's probably all they'll get if they don't leave United Kingdom, and remain subject to England's Tory governments.

[loststarshine]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I can only imagine the scar it left thats why america bothers to me alot of people here are eager to go to war. I dont think they fully understand the consquences that follow. My biggest fear is usa vs russia.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I can only imagine the scar it left thats why america bothers to me alot of people here are eager to go to war. I dont think they fully understand the consquences that follow. My biggest fear is usa vs russia.

I don't really think that will happen either. It will just be a second cold war, I think. Russia is too big to take on directly.

I understand why North Americans aren't as wary of war...North America has never had a modern war on its own soil. It has had attacks, but not a full-blown war. You don't have entire blocks of your city or even entire sections of major highways closed because construction crews found an active bomb from a war fought 70 years ago. You don't visit "historic cities" where the only actual historic thing is the entrance to the old city gate because 97% of the historic city was decimated. You don't have bombed out buildings left like that as a reminder. Most of you don't have grandparents who remember huddling in fear in cellars in the night during bomb raids. When it comes to WWII, people understand why it happened and don't feel bitter towards the British or the Americans over it...the Nazis brought on the war directly by invading countries in succession, getting involved in the Spanish Civil War in a big way, and showing no signs of stopping. They provoked the Allies in major ways by bombing London, which brought on a lot of the destruction we still see in Germany today. But that being said, the whole experience has made this country not a big fan of war. It's not going to go to war so close to home unless a country attacks it. People barely even tolerated going to Afghanistan.

I sometimes feel like Americans are a bit naive when it comes to war. I get and respect that there are a lot of people there who have fought in them and experienced it first-hand, but the vast majority of people have NO idea what war is and what it means. Over here, people my age don't know a whole lot about it either but we still feel some of the consequences. It makes you wary of it.

Anyway, to get back on topic, I wouldn't call Scotland unprepared or irresponsible if it decided to take a different approach to military than its neighbour down south. It wouldn't make it that different from many other European countries, which seems to be where the separatists and the SNP want to head anyway.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Something that many people outside Scotland (and Wales, too, for that matter) don't understand is that these countries tend to be socialist and quite hostile towards the Tories (conservative party). This is an historical thing, not just recent. In the 1930's for example, every single councillor in Ferndale (about six miles from here) represented the communist party. And even Winston Churchill was not a hero in my part of the world, but a war monger who sent British soldiers to shoot at striking Welsh miners.

So... that said, is it any wonder that there is a strong movement for independence in Scotland, which was only recently (past 500 years ) tacked onto England? Personally I hope they vote yes. And then I hope that Wales follows suit.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Something that many people outside Scotland (and Wales, too, for that matter) don't understand is that these countries tend to be socialist and quite hostile towards the Tories (conservative party). This is an historical thing, not just recent. In the 1930's for example, every single councillor in Ferndale (about six miles from here) represented the communist party. And even Winston Churchill was not a hero in my part of the world, but a war monger who sent British soldiers to shoot at striking Welsh miners.

So... that said, is it any wonder that there is a strong movement for independence in Scotland, which was only recently (past 500 years ) tacked onto England? Personally I hope they vote yes. And then I hope that Wales follows suit.

Exactly..it makes sense to me. I can totally understand the feeling of disassociation that that could bring, especially given the fact that many Scots (Highlanders especially) never felt like part of Britain.

Also, the Conservatives have NOT done themselves any favours on this issues. I'm sure you've seen the Lego campaign and the "Patronising Better Together Lady". Seriously...if I were Scottish, I'd be offended.

For those that aren't aware of those campaigns, check them out:

Lego:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/05/uk-government-denies-patronising-scottish-voters-lego

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/06/05/scottish-independence-lego-treasury-list_n_5451896.html

Patronising Better Together Lady:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-does-any-woman-find-the-time-to-vote-with-so-much-cooking-and-cleaning-to-do-9700344.html

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/...ising-bt-woman (you can see the actual ad here, as well as some of the spoofs that the Yes supporters made to parody it)

Solid proof that the Conservatives (and Better Together) are out of touch with, well, people.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Personally I hope they vote yes. And then I hope that Wales follows suit.

Oi! Don't forget about Northern Ireland now!

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I don't think one of the reasons for an independent Scotland is that it was free 500 years ago or whatever. Thats flawed as that is a VERY long time as far as the modern world here. The French colonies in Canada were conquered around then, shall we release them all because thats recent? The natives as well? By the logic of a nation having a right to independence because it was independent five centuries ago, we might as well release like a thousand nations world wide.

I do however think wanting to govern themselves and do whats right for the Scottish people is a good reason for independence.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I don't think one of the reasons for an independent Scotland is that it was free 500 years ago or whatever. Thats flawed as that is a VERY long time as far as the modern world here. The French colonies in Canada were conquered around then, shall we release them all because thats recent? The natives as well? By the logic of a nation having a right to independence because it was independent five centuries ago, we might as well release like a thousand nations world wide.

I do however think wanting to govern themselves and do whats right for the Scottish people is a good reason for independence.

No one said that was the only reason and no one said that it is a big reason why Scotland ought to be independent. But it would be silly to say that it doesn't play a role at all. It does. It's part of how the people view themselves. And yes, that is also how many Quebecers view themselves, and it would play a role in another separatism referendum.

As for whether Quebec should separate, whether it should or shouldn't really isn't the question. If Quebec votes to become its own country, I think it has a right to be. I don't think it would be the best idea (Quebec and Scotland are not the same place and the former doesn't have many of the advantages of the latter), but as a non-Quebecer (even as a Canadian), I don't think that's really up to me.

The First Nations is a really sticky issue because yes, I do think they have a right to their land, but other Canadians do too and it's been so long that it's impossible to really fairly sort it out. Their land was stolen from them at the end of the day, but you can't really kick out the millions of Canadians who have been living there for generations. That's why the treaty process is so complicated. I don't think it's fair or right to say that it shouldn't be happening (and it is happening) because it happened so long ago. We may think it's behind us, but they certainly haven't, and they never will.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

By the logic of a nation having a right to independence because it was independent five centuries ago, we might as well release like a thousand nations world wide.

What's wrong with that if that's what those nations want? And who gives a nation the right to 'release' another nation anyway? The post-colonial narrative strikes again!

- - - Updated - - -

Oi! Don't forget about Northern Ireland now!

They should have left about a century ago! ;-)

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

No one said that was the only reason and no one said that it is a big reason why Scotland ought to be independent.

I don't think anybody said any of those things. What I'm saying is I don't believe that an event that far back holds and credible sway in an argument today. 500 years is a long time, generations pass, things change. I don't think todays people in Scotland can rightly claim that as a part of the reason they should be independent is all. Like I said the other reasons they stated are valid, I just wouldn't personally count the age thing at all.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I don't think anybody said any of those things. What I'm saying is I don't believe that an event that far back holds and credible sway in an argument today. 500 years is a long time, generations pass, things change. I don't think todays people in Scotland can rightly claim that as a part of the reason they should be independent is all. Like I said the other reasons they stated are valid, I just wouldn't personally count the age thing at all.

I think that's easy for you to say from your end of things, but I think it's a valid feeling. Imagine that your country made a treaty with England and that the people of your country never really wanted to British subjects. That feeling never changed and you tried to break free a few times, but it never worked in your favour. The world changed and the country changed, but your national identity never really did, and it didn't for your countrymen either. The country that "united" with yours and often abused yours (and that, when we're honest, tried a number of times to totally crush the culture of your country) still holds dominance over your country and you and the other people around you have very little say about how things go. Wouldn't it be reasonable to want independence?

When you come from one of these places, whether it be Scotland, Basque, Quebec, or whatever, you don't really forget that that's who you are. The rest of the world may have forgotten about it and moved on in most cases, but you certainly haven't.

Like I and others have said, it's by far not the only reason why separatism is so strong at the moment and why Scotland -should- be independent, but it plays a huge role. National identity and history mean a lot and they don't just go away, even after hundreds of years.

(by "you" I don't mean you...I'm using hypothetical third person).

[Quetzal]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I'm all for Scotland going independent. I reckon it'll be a bad thing for both Scotland and the rest of the UK, but I'm just filled with morbid curiosity. I wanna see the results of such a big change in my country.

[loststarshine]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

I think that's easy for you to say from your end of things, but I think it's a valid feeling. Imagine that your country made a treaty with England and that the people of your country never really wanted to British subjects. That feeling never changed and you tried to break free a few times, but it never worked in your favour. The world changed and the country changed, but your national identity never really did, and it didn't for your countrymen either.

I agree 100%
They would of always remembered as a piece of their heritage. I know the time span is less however the south has not forgotten and in 351 years I dont see that changing some people in the south still wish to seperate.

[Larix]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

Scotland forever!

Long may thy proud standarts gloriously wave!

[DanieMarie]

Re: Scottish Vote for Independence

A Scottish friend posted this on her wall today. It was a repost from a "Yes" page that someone apparently originally posted on a "No" page:

Edit: And another Scottish friend -just- posted this: http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...gland-scotland

(I have to say, The Guardian seems to be in favour of Scottish Independence, even when you take CommentIsFree out of the equation.)