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  • #31
    Re: Shinto Group Thread

    Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
    That is indeed an interesting story. I do like the possible idea that yūrei can be helpful instead of their common malicious perception among the West, and even among those in the East. As for finding the blog post, it would certainly be an interesting resource to have, but don't feel like you have to.
    Here is the blog post: http://endofthegame.net/2012/02/20/aokigahara/

    It is interesting to consider how we think about the narratives (mythology, as some would say) in our tradition. This is something that pretty much every polytheistic tradition must consider, and we see it a lot on PF.

    I myself was recently wondering about symbology... Do you think it would be appropriate as a Shinto practitioner to express oneself using our most common symbol, the Torii gate, as other religious people do with their jewelry, etc. (crosses, pentacles)?

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    • #32
      Re: Shinto Group Thread

      Hey there sirz345! It has been quite some time since I saw you last. Welcome back. :3

      On the topic of having to be Japanese or in Japan to worship the Kami, or that the Kami only exist within the area of Japan, I could not agree more with you. The Kami exist within all things not just those in Japan, and many things which contain Kami can be worshipped and revered regardless of your location on the world. Take Amaterasu-Ōmikami as an example. Does the Sun cease to be the Sun when you leave Japan? Just as the physical nature of these things holds a permanence outside of Japan, so to do their Kami not cease to be once you leave Japan.

      On the topic of dogma, I think that the only argument for dogma that can be made is that Shinto generally has a common understanding of spiritual nature through the belief in Kami. Though I would say that even this could not been seen as a set dogma, because there is no proper consensus on the matter. Some view Kami as hard or soft polytheistic, some pantheistic, some monist, and so on and so forth.

      Originally posted by Cobra View Post
      Here is the blog post: http://endofthegame.net/2012/02/20/aokigahara/

      It is interesting to consider how we think about the narratives (mythology, as some would say) in our tradition. This is something that pretty much every polytheistic tradition must consider, and we see it a lot on PF.

      I myself was recently wondering about symbology... Do you think it would be appropriate as a Shinto practitioner to express oneself using our most common symbol, the Torii gate, as other religious people do with their jewelry, etc. (crosses, pentacles)?
      That forest is not a place I plan to visit any time soon, and especially not by myself, or at night. I'm too scared to watch most horror movies, so I can only imagine the results of going to such a place.

      As to the usage of symbols by Shinto practitioners, I think that the Torii gate is the safest bet. I have seen that the Jinja Honcho has a small torii as a part of its symbol. It is easily recognisable to other practitioners. A more discrete symbol could be a red circle in a pendent to symbolise Amaterasu-Ōmikami, or foxes for Inari-Ōkami,a Moon for Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto, and so on and so forth, though that would probably be for people seeking the protection or connection with a particular Kami.

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      • #33
        Re: Shinto Group Thread

        So I was looking over the internet and I came across these images of some Kami. I really like them myself, and thought I might as well share them. Enjoy!

        Amaterasu-?mikami.jpgTsukuyomi-no-Mikoto.jpgKonohanasakuya-hime.jpg
        From left to right: Amaterasu-Ōmikami, Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto, Konohanasakuya-hime

        Sources:

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Shinto Group Thread

          Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
          As to the usage of symbols by Shinto practitioners, I think that the Torii gate is the safest bet. I have seen that the Jinja Honcho has a small torii as a part of its symbol. It is easily recognisable to other practitioners. A more discrete symbol could be a red circle in a pendent to symbolise Amaterasu-Ōmikami, or foxes for Inari-Ōkami,a Moon for Tsukuyomi-no-Mikoto, and so on and so forth, though that would probably be for people seeking the protection or connection with a particular Kami.
          My question was more along the lines of whether it would be appropriate to wear it as others wear their symbols. It's not a common question that is gone over because most people in Japan do not need to express themselves that way.

          That art is nice. Since there was no depiction of Susanoo-no-Mikoto, I will share one of my favorites. It's by Kuniteru, and was painted sometime in the mid nineteenth century.

          Kuniteru_Gozu_dragon.jpg

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          • #35
            Re: Shinto Group Thread

            I personally do not see anything which could indicate itself as being a reason why doing such a thing would be considered unacceptable, in both Shinto tradition or in a spiritual sense. I do think that it would raise some eyebrows amongst more traditional practitioners, as you said it is not a common question or practice among the Japanese. That being said, I do not see how wearing such symbols is any more offensive to the Kami, or the Shinto faith and traditions, as wearing or carrying Omamori, or other amulets or talismans. That is to say, not at all.

            As for the image, that is very nice! I will definitely be saving that to my files. In the mean time, I also have a depiction of Hotei. It is not traditional drawings by any sense, but I like it, although I do wish that he was laughing as he is usually depicted as doing. Hmmm...the art I have been going after so far has been contemporary, but perhaps I should look more at the traditional paintings and iconography. They look really cool and nice!
            __hotei___by_losenko-d4xhctl.jpg

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            • #36
              Re: Shinto Group Thread

              Yes, I actually tend to enjoy the older art such as Kuniteru's a bit more, but that's just me.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Shinto Group Thread

                Sorry to double post, but if you all ever need a quick, official link to explain Shinto afterlife beliefs, here it is! From the Jinja Honcho website itself!

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Shinto Group Thread

                  I know I'm a little late to the party but here it goes! I've been Shinto for around three years now, I am a non-Japanese convert and I'm proud to represent a faith with little to no representation in the west. My experience with Shinto began on accident about 4 years ago when I stumbled across the faith and read into it, it represented my beliefs almost perfectly so I said 'You know what? Sign me up!' and I began identifying as Shinto twoish months later (I felt like I needed to do a little bit more reading into it, identify prayers and other traditions, etc.) in the great state of Utah. Utah was hard, polytheistic traditions such as Shinto have a long, sad history of being the whipping boy for Christians and boy oh boy did the local LDS population remind me of it, I'm glad most did remain silent however to them, it was easy to ignore the comments of those who knew so little.

                  I believe in the power of the kami and also a principle I call "tiered Kami" which isn't really an official thing but it is a belief that there are different tiers of kami: an example of which would be a familial ancestor being lower than Amaterasu, her holiness, the sun, both are kami and both have great power, one is just a little bit higher than others. Another thing that polytheistic traditions did for me was something I always had a problem with concerning semitic faiths: if god was good and satan had no real mortal power, why did god intentionally give children and adults alike horrible diseases and allow wars? Polytheism answered it quite simply: there are bad and good GODS, not god, the bad ones cause the disease, the war, the famine, while the good ones heal them and are constantly fighting the bad ones to make us healthy and happy but sometimes the bad ones can win. This seemed like a good explanation to me so honestly that was what truly attracted me to polytheism, the morals revealed themselves later and really they were the icing on the cake. I attempt to live my life as best the gods can ask for, including a weekly offering of food/spices (depends on my mood) at my kamidana. I am more than willing to openly answer any questions about Shinto (which I've already been doing a little of haha) just as my brothers and sisters in the faith already have. May the Hachiman and Sarutahiko watch over all who read this!

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by Cobra View Post
                  My question was more along the lines of whether it would be appropriate to wear it as others wear their symbols. It's not a common question that is gone over because most people in Japan do not need to express themselves that way.

                  That art is nice. Since there was no depiction of Susanoo-no-Mikoto, I will share one of my favorites. It's by Kuniteru, and was painted sometime in the mid nineteenth century.

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]3600[/ATTACH]
                  https://www.etsy.com/listing/160396348/pendant-charm-necklace-bright-red-epoxy?ref=sr_gallery_26&ga_search_query=red+circle +pendant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery

                  This for representation of Amaterasu and perhaps you could stencil on a torii, as both a symbol of Amaterasu and the faith itself? A dark circle could be used for Susano-o since Amaterasu and himself are generally considered quite opposite. I myself have looked for torii necklaces and they are RARE. Although with five minutes and a piece of cardboard you could make a decent torii symbol and put it on the necklace. After all, the best kinds of religious pendants are handmade ones.

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                  • #39
                    Re: Shinto Group Thread

                    One of the really good resources I have found to explain the basic principles of Shinto spirituality is this publication called the "Soul of Japan" that was published by Jinja Honchō (The Association of Shinto Shrines) and Ise Jinja (One of the oldest and most revered shrines for those unfamiliar). It also contains some basic information about Kami like Amaterasu-Ōmikami, and about the establishment of Ise Jinja.

                    It also has pictures, which automatically makes it much more awesome! ^u^

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Shinto Group Thread

                      Sorry if this has already been asked, but I was wondering whether tattoos are not allowed in Shintoism?

                      I've read it's frowned upon because our bodies are gifts from our parents and the Gods, so to tattoo our bodies is to dishonour the gift. I've also heard there's a lot of stories where the bad guys get tattooed by Gods, as punishment.

                      Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Shinto Group Thread

                        Originally posted by SilverShadow View Post
                        Sorry if this has already been asked, but I was wondering whether tattoos are not allowed in Shintoism?

                        I've read it's frowned upon because our bodies are gifts from our parents and the Gods, so to tattoo our bodies is to dishonour the gift. I've also heard there's a lot of stories where the bad guys get tattooed by Gods, as punishment.

                        Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
                        I couldn't really find any mention of tattoos in a religious sense online, but I definitely found plenty on the views of Japanese people towards tattoos. If you could get a link to where you have read information about the body being a gift thing that would be much appreciated.

                        As for tattoos being used for punishment, or on bad guys, well that draws itself from more of a cultural aspect than a religious one from what I can tell. In Japan, tattoos have long been associated with the criminal element. In Japan's history, tattoos have been used to make criminals and slaves instantly recognisable as punishment. Today, in modern Japan, there is still a large-scale stigma around tattoos. Since tattoos were illegal in 19th century, to the end of World War 2, Japan, tattoos became a symbol of the criminal element, and especially of the Yakuza (equivalent of the Mafia in Japan). The Japan Times says it best, in my opinion, “…the perception Japanese people have of tattoos, at its most simple, core level is this: People see tattoos and that equals yakuza, yakuza means criminal.”

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Shinto Group Thread

                          Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
                          I couldn't really find any mention of tattoos in a religious sense online, but I definitely found plenty on the views of Japanese people towards tattoos. If you could get a link to where you have read information about the body being a gift thing that would be much appreciated.

                          As for tattoos being used for punishment, or on bad guys, well that draws itself from more of a cultural aspect than a religious one from what I can tell. In Japan, tattoos have long been associated with the criminal element. In Japan's history, tattoos have been used to make criminals and slaves instantly recognisable as punishment. Today, in modern Japan, there is still a large-scale stigma around tattoos. Since tattoos were illegal in 19th century, to the end of World War 2, Japan, tattoos became a symbol of the criminal element, and especially of the Yakuza (equivalent of the Mafia in Japan). The Japan Times says it best, in my opinion, “…the perception Japanese people have of tattoos, at its most simple, core level is this: People see tattoos and that equals yakuza, yakuza means criminal.”

                          I just found the thing about tattoos and shinto on another forum-



                          They do mention that in one of the sacred texts that the Gods tattooed criminals/bad people. But I haven't read any of those yet, so I wasn't sure if it was true or not.

                          I had heard about the cultural reasons in Japan for people not embracing tattoos. I'm sure that perception will change over time, but probably not in time for me to visit a bath house, ha ha!

                          But I did think given the cultural importance of Shinto in Japan, there might also be an element of a bias against tattoos in Shinto as well. I'm interested in Shinto (maybe more as a practise than a spiritual thing), but I don't want to be disrespectful of the rules/beliefs.

                          I've heard the Yakuza still practise Shintoism, but then they're not exactly known for their strict adherence to the rules...

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Shinto Group Thread

                            My apologies for taking so long to reply. I decided that it would probably be best, as I could not find an satisfactory answer on my own independent research, to consult a Shinto priest, in this case an American priest, Reverend K. Barrish of the Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America. His response on the subject was as follows:
                            "—as for the tattoo —Shinto world tends to be rather conservative…during Meiji times tattoos were associated with criminals —so tattoos are not so good for shrine environment"
                            Ultimately what is able to be concluded from this is that the general view of Shinto practitioners and shrines, with Japanese being a large majority, is that tattoos are associated with their already preconceived notion of the criminal element born from the Meiji era.

                            That being said, this does not mean that tattoos are considered prohibited in the Shinto spirituality itself, but rather that the culture which Shinto arises from, and from which it draws the overwhelming majority of its practitioners, have a general negative stigma regarding tattoos. Like other religious texts the use of punishments by the Kami are not exempt from the cultural context in which they are written. With tattoos, and forced tattooing, being used to identify criminals, the use of punishments by Kami, if present, as I am unfamiliar with such tales, would not surprising absorb such qualities via the cultural osmosis of the culture which it draws itself from.

                            To sum everything up, tattoos are not so much divinely prohibited as they are cultural viewed with a negative disposition. This does not mean that you cannot have tattoos while practising Shinto as a religion, and they are even becoming somewhat more common in Japan outside of Yakuza, but you should be aware whenever you go to a shrine, and especially one in Japan, that there is a negative stigma associated with them, and consider covering them up if you can. First impressions can be crucial, and having something commonly associated with criminal behaviour in their culture can send a wrong first impression.

                            If there is any further clarification I can offer then feel free to post or private message me. :3

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Shinto Group Thread

                              Originally posted by SilverShadow View Post
                              Sorry if this has already been asked, but I was wondering whether tattoos are not allowed in Shintoism?

                              I've read it's frowned upon because our bodies are gifts from our parents and the Gods, so to tattoo our bodies is to dishonour the gift. I've also heard there's a lot of stories where the bad guys get tattooed by Gods, as punishment.

                              Can anyone shed some light on this for me?
                              In the documents I've read as well as a few statements from Kannushi associations, it is frowned upon in Japanese culture, not necessarily against the rules of Shinto but due to the common association of Shinto=Japanese Culture (they often share traits but aren't 100% aligned).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Shinto Group Thread

                                Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
                                My apologies for taking so long to reply. I decided that it would probably be best, as I could not find an satisfactory answer on my own independent research, to consult a Shinto priest, in this case an American priest, Reverend K. Barrish of the Tsubaki Grand Shrine of America. His response on the subject was as follows:

                                Ultimately what is able to be concluded from this is that the general view of Shinto practitioners and shrines, with Japanese being a large majority, is that tattoos are associated with their already preconceived notion of the criminal element born from the Meiji era.

                                That being said, this does not mean that tattoos are considered prohibited in the Shinto spirituality itself, but rather that the culture which Shinto arises from, and from which it draws the overwhelming majority of its practitioners, have a general negative stigma regarding tattoos. Like other religious texts the use of punishments by the Kami are not exempt from the cultural context in which they are written. With tattoos, and forced tattooing, being used to identify criminals, the use of punishments by Kami, if present, as I am unfamiliar with such tales, would not surprising absorb such qualities via the cultural osmosis of the culture which it draws itself from.

                                To sum everything up, tattoos are not so much divinely prohibited as they are cultural viewed with a negative disposition. This does not mean that you cannot have tattoos while practising Shinto as a religion, and they are even becoming somewhat more common in Japan outside of Yakuza, but you should be aware whenever you go to a shrine, and especially one in Japan, that there is a negative stigma associated with them, and consider covering them up if you can. First impressions can be crucial, and having something commonly associated with criminal behaviour in their culture can send a wrong first impression.

                                If there is any further clarification I can offer then feel free to post or private message me. :3

                                Thank you for taking the time to find a good answer, rather than just a fast one

                                Comment

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