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Thread: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

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    Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    An atheist in the US Air Force (USAF) has been told he will not be allowed to re-enlist unless he swears an oath to God.

    This should be an interesting case.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014...n_5803112.html
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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    To me this seems like a matter of atheist chest-beating. If you don't believe in god, making a vow to god is meaningless and hence shouldn't be offensive.

    I get why people want to fight it on principle and that's all its about. I get the feeling that's the entire reason this person enlisted -- since the rule specifically says they need to say the oath 'as is' conveniently last year.

    I guess I've personally moved past that sort of thing making me upset, so that likely colors my view on this. God is just a concept and a saying to me that means 'really mean it' and so saying "so help me god" is a matter of connotation vs. denotation (of specifically being about a deity vs. meaning 'very much')

    It wouldn't bother me to say it.

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    I think about it this way--if it is something that they don't attach a great significance to, by all means, just do it.

    But.

    If someone is willing to lie about something they strongly feel is deeply wrong in the most basic of oaths that one takes to serve in the military because other people don't think its a big deal...what else will they lie about or justify when someone higher up tells them so?
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Well, it's the principle of matters isn't it? At least he's being honest.

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    I think about it this way--if it is something that they don't attach a great significance to, by all means, just do it.

    But.

    If someone is willing to lie about something they strongly feel is deeply wrong in the most basic of oaths that one takes to serve in the military because other people don't think its a big deal...what else will they lie about or justify when someone higher up tells them so?

    I think the big question is just that. Is this truly a matter of belief (when they KNEW before enlisting in this specific branch of service that they would have to do) or is it just a stunt to draw attention to this thing they disagree with? People do crazy stuff to get their names and their cause into the papers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LordJulian View Post
    Well, it's the principle of matters isn't it? At least he's being honest.
    That's what I'm questioning to be honest. I'm pretty cynical, but I'm not sure I trust this, considering the track record of a lot of anti-religious activists. (not freedom OF but freedom FROM types)

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    I've seen a reenlistment where "so help me god" was left out...so...
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    I the story they mention the "So help me god" was removed,but has now been reinstated.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Rowanwood View Post
    To me this seems like a matter of atheist chest-beating. If you don't believe in god, making a vow to god is meaningless and hence shouldn't be offensive.

    I get why people want to fight it on principle and that's all its about. I get the feeling that's the entire reason this person enlisted -- since the rule specifically says they need to say the oath 'as is' conveniently last year.

    I guess I've personally moved past that sort of thing making me upset, so that likely colors my view on this. God is just a concept and a saying to me that means 'really mean it' and so saying "so help me god" is a matter of connotation vs. denotation (of specifically being about a deity vs. meaning 'very much')

    It wouldn't bother me to say it.


    I get really sick and tired of this mentality of just have the atheists shut up and lie because their belief system isn't really worth anything. Bullshit.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I get really sick and tired of this mentality of just have the atheists shut up and lie because their belief system isn't really worth anything. Bullshit.
    I lied when I enlisted. Gay people had to lie when they enlisted for years.

    Its not right, its just the way it is. At the end of the day, the dude has to decide which he wants more, until the system changes. For some people, its worth it.

    (and the system won't change until people like him take a stand...unfortunately, knowing the system, he's gonna get chewed up and spit out first)
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    I lied when I enlisted.
    If I had it to over again, I would say "so help me cod"
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

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