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Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

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    #16
    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
    say hey look we undid something for you.
    Fixed for you.

    Provided the article is accurate, omitting reference to God was perfectly okay last October. If the Air Force willingly stabs itself in the foot for shits and giggles, it doesn't get to blame the rest of society for saying, "No, you aren't allowed to be an idiot on our dime." I might almost be capable of sympathy if this wasn't a problem that should've been foreseen when the Air Force decided to change policy last year. They made a dumb-ass call, they can freely reap all the rewards of that call.
    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


    Comment

      #17
      Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      Funny they always claim atheist right up to the point where death seems certain and then pray to everyone and anyone to save their lives. But then again the old saying is there are no atheist in a fox hole.
      What bs is this? You've been in death beds with atheists?

      Funny they always claim they are religious until they do something totally shitty. Guess the saying is true. Claim God till you can't.

      See. I can make up shit too.
      Satan is my spirit animal

      Comment

        #18
        Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
        What bs is this? You've been in death beds with atheists?

        Funny they always claim they are religious until they do something totally shitty. Guess the saying is true. Claim God till you can't.

        See. I can make up shit too.
        Yeah I have, both on the death and when we sure as shit though we were going to die. 23 years military and firefight services tends to place you in those situations. Like I said loud mouths right up to when it looks like your sure to die.

        - - - Updated - - -

        I do have to add as an after though that I am a bit disappointed. Most of the hard core Atheist I know don't claim it to be bs or such they point out its simply a psychological and social conditioning that kicks in during a period of stress and conditioning. Something that is forever presented as an accepted and logical means of facing death or potential of death. As such its not a true representation of spiritual belief but almost a conditioned response for a situation of that nature and severity.

        But then maybe they are a different sort of atheist.
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

        Comment

          #19
          Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

          People in desperate situations will clutch at straws - even when they know their are no straws.

          I can imagine situations that don't even involve my life or death where I might do the same thing. It really doesn't mean anything, other than desperation.
          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

          Comment

            #20
            Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

            Erm...I know plenty of atheists in foxholes.

            Including a couple Korea and Vietnam vets I've had as patients.



            This is, and always has been, total BS.



            I mean, I still say "God damn it" when I'm pissed....that doesn't mean I'm Christian all the sudden. Then again, I'm not making an Oath.
            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
            sigpic

            Comment

              #21
              Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

              I am not allowed to speak my relgious beliefs at work. If a patient asks for me to pray with them I will. He chose to go into an area where his beliefs will not be respected. Its wrong yes he shouldnt of expected them to make a exception for him anytime soon. Our military isnt know for its open mindness.

              Comment

                #22
                Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                I want to point out that the very FIRST thing you swear (or affirm) to in the (current) Oath of Enlistment says this:

                "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same"

                And the Constitution says this:

                Constitution Article VI Paragraph 3: “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office”

                Now, maybe its just me, but I see a problem if you have to break the Constitution that you have sworn (or affirmed) true faith and allegiance to, and to defend against foreign and domestic enemies



                Originally posted by loststarshine View Post
                I am not allowed to speak my relgious beliefs at work. If a patient asks for me to pray with them I will. He chose to go into an area where his beliefs will not be respected. Its wrong yes he shouldnt of expected them to make a exception for him anytime soon. Our military isnt know for its open mindness.

                Erm...he absolutely SHOULD expect them to make an "exception" for him, and for any other person that doesn't want to make an oath to God. They allow for the substitution of "swear" for "affirm" for those whose (Christian) religions prohibit them from swearing an oath. Also, it was the policy of the AF to allow this substitution until recently.

                And, I've (in the Navy) attended a reenlistment where this line was dropped...so its not like its an accommodation that is impossible to make. Additionally, I've known atheists, Pagans, Wiccans, Muslims, and even a few Satanists in my time in the Navy...and in all but the last case (and I'm not convinced it was the Satanist thing, so much as the dirtbag-asshole thing in these two cases, though I admit, it could go either way), the various chains of command I've been a part of have supported those individuals in their religious (or non-religious) pursuits through lay leaders (yeah, even an atheist lay leader at one command) and worship or discussion groups.

                You do get some Constitutional rights in the military--religious expression is one of them. There is a huge difference in a civilian workplace and being in a deplorable military unit--like you normally don't live there.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

                Comment

                  #23
                  Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                  Wasnt aware the constitution had that havent read it since high school. So by that yes he is entitled to an exception. If they reinstate the draft ever again they will have to make exceptions or else that would be an easy out.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                    Also, I feel like adding that the original historical Oaths of Enlistment had no mention of God in them...and this was a-ok til Commie times.

                    The problem is the wording of the USC Title 10 Subtitle A Part II Chapter 31 Section 502, which says:

                    a) Enlistment Oath.—Each person enlisting in an armed force shall take the following oath:
                    “I, ____________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”
                    In legal language, SHALL means you have a duty to do so. BUT, an alternative to SWEAR is AFFIRM, and the alternative to OATH is an AFFIRMATION, which are legally accepted (and commented towards elsewhere). Since someone AFFIRMING isn't making an OATH, the don't need to SWEAR (to God) because they've made an AFFIRMATION.

                    Its all legalese, which apparently the DoD has already decided on, because the other branches do it that way already...but the Air Force thinks they are special.

                    From the Army regs (AR-601-280 Appendix D, Paragraph 2-k)

                    k. Oath of enlistment/reenlistment. Verify with soldier to determine if he or she prefers to "swear" or "affirm." The phrase, "so help me God" may be deleted for soldiers electing to "affirm." For soldiers electing to "affirm," prepare a 3- by 5-inch card, editing the oath, for use by the administering officer.
                    Regarding the Navy, there's this.

                    Lol...and here's this from the NavyTimes:

                    An atheist airman who must take a reenlistment oath concluding “so help me God” or end his Air Force career would have better luck enlisting in the Army, Navy or Marine Corps, which allow soldiers, sailors and Marines to omit the phrase.

                    sauce

                    Of course, its the Air Force...and they have been notoriously guilty of this sort of thing.
                    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                    sigpic

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                      So what we're saying is that the Army should revoke the Air Force status as an independent service and run it legally?


                      Yes, I know, the Army can't actually do this but I'm sure it wishes it could and there are times when the idea has more merit than others.
                      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                      Comment

                        #26
                        Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                        So what we're saying is that the Army should revoke the Air Force status as an independent service and run it legally?


                        Yes, I know, the Army can't actually do this but I'm sure it wishes it could and there are times when the idea has more merit than others.
                        Actually, yeah. I think they should be like the Marines.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                          Apparently, DoD general counsel told the Air Force to quit acting like idiots

                          Error code: 404
                          http://www.navytimes.com/article/20140917/NEWS/309170066
                          navy-times
                          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                          Comment

                            #28
                            Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                            Apparently, DoD general counsel told the Air Force to quit acting like idiots

                            http://www.navytimes.com/article/201...NEWS/309170066
                            I figured this would be the outcome.
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                            sigpic

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                              It's cheaper and faster than a federal judge doing it.
                              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                              Comment

                                #30
                                Re: Atheist US Airman Told To Swear To God Or Leave

                                Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                                It's cheaper and faster than a federal judge doing it.
                                And it was already DoD policy.

                                Who on earth in the Air Force was too dumb to check on that before issuing the new instructions, I don't know...but what a loser.
                                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                                sigpic

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