Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

[anunitu]

I am pondering where our Country(US) will end up kicking dirt in. I hear the war drums pounding,and I wonder about the future.

Just an old man hoping to NOT see war and killing again.

"U.S. General Backs Limited Ground Operations Against ISIS if Needed"
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/wo...tion.html?_r=0

Just how deep are we gonna go?

Your thoughts..

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I think the hawks are still flying on this one. In many ways it almost seems like waving the bloody shirt in the hopes that the populace will once again forget and start the chant for war. I wore the uniform for 23 years but I don't want to see us go into another Vietnam like situation where we think there is a good American inside just waiting to get out. By trying to insert an American like democracy into a foreign county or area that is what where doing all over. Adviser's on the the ground since WWII have almost always been followed up with more and more boots on the ground for the win. Yet no one is winning for we just postpone or change the immediate conflict and create a larger situation to be dealt with later

Corrupt government after corrupt government is not going to change the outcome. We didn't learn it in Vietnam and sadly it doesn't seem as if we are learning it in the Middle East either. When troops throw down their arms and don't fight for their own government and beliefs we're not going to change it by putting our people in there. Especially so if we tie their hands and try to make it politically correct vice going in to actually defeat the opponent. Rules of engagement have done nothing to aid in winning the hearts and minds but sure puts our troops on the ground in a difficult position and the bodies are sure to stack up that we end up sending home as broken or dead.

[thalassa]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

To quote the Hubby:

I'd rather be there now, for what amounts to religious genocide...lets just call it religiocide, than chasing imaginary weapons when I was there the first time. And lets be honest, we created this monster.

[anunitu]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I agree this is our own ghosts come home to roost...these things are the result of many hundreds of years of conflict with a lingering grudge that never dies....

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I want us all to go kick their asses to be quite frank, but its not that easy unfortunately. And I really don't want another Canadian, American, Brit, German, or innocent middle easterner to die from another war over there. I'm sick of it, wish we could find the solution.

[Aislin]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I want us all to go kick their asses to be quite frank, but its not that easy unfortunately. And I really don't want another Canadian, American, Brit, German, or innocent middle easterner to die from another war over there. I'm sick of it, wish we could find the solution.

^^
at least us north americans have an ocean between us and them for the most part. i feel really bad for Countries that are closer... I believe in freedom of religion with all my heart, and i think we should tolerate anyones belief.

But what do you do with a religion that has declared a "holy war" on EVERYONE ELSE (Infidels). Its a conundrum... and i dont feel too politically correct on the topic so ima shut up =)

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

Well, first we're putting boots on the Ebola outbreak. Let's see where that goes.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

Well, first we're putting boots on the Ebola outbreak. Let's see where that goes.

Yeah, if it goes badly, the rest of this worry won't matter much.

- - - Updated - - -

...But what do you do with a religion that has declared a "holy war" on EVERYONE ELSE (Infidels). Its a conundrum... and i dont feel too politically correct on the topic so ima shut up =)

You recognize that it isn't the specific religion, it is the means to which some people will carry or put to use a religion.

[satanic witch]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I honestly think either one we need to just pull everything out of the middle east and let them destroy themselves which they have a history of doing or my favorite two go into the middle east and go fix the problem we started go bomb the middle east so hard it don't know which direction is up then proceed to send troops in to confiscate weapons ammunition and bombs mines and missiles then leave in an orderly fashion , this to me sounds like the best plan cause giving them democracy which was the dumbest thing we have ever done the people in the mid least follow a cycle which started long before america democracy this is all they know and if we want to stop it then were going to need to do more then ruff them up and give them a worse government then they had before we are going to need to be more brutal then they are take there guns and weapons . And if they stile wanna cause problems then Lett them duke it out with steak knives .

[Torey]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I honestly think either one we need to just pull everything out of the middle east and let them destroy themselves which they have a history of doing or my favorite two go into the middle east and go fix the problem we started go bomb the middle east so hard it don't know which direction is up then proceed to send troops in to confiscate weapons ammunition and bombs mines and missiles then leave in an orderly fashion , this to me sounds like the best plan cause giving them democracy which was the dumbest thing we have ever done the people in the mid least follow a cycle which started long before america democracy this is all they know and if we want to stop it then were going to need to do more then ruff them up and give them a worse government then they had before we are going to need to be more brutal then they are take there guns and weapons . And if they stile wanna cause problems then Lett them duke it out with steak knives .

I know that you mean well, but you've made some pretty negative generalisations here.

"Bomb the Middle East so hard it don't know which direction is up"?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

two go into the middle east and go fix the problem we started go bomb the middle east so hard it don't know which direction is up then proceed to send troops in to confiscate weapons ammunition and bombs mines and missiles then leave in an orderly fashion

This won't actually work. Well, let me rephrase, it'll work absolutely fine if we do it by launching significant portions of our nuclear arsenal and killing enough people that Hitler will be remembered kindly by comparison to us. Otherwise, the US can project power better than any nation on this planet bar nothing and no one but we have limits. Forcibly disarming the Middle East without committing atrocities that make the Nazis bona fide saints by comparison is outside those limits. Beat their armies in open conflict? Sure, we can do that if we really want to. It'll take time to build up and cost more than I care to consider and there are better ways to lose several tens of billions of dollars than funding a war against the Mid East but we can do it. Occupying and disarming them however would be very, very long, hideously expensive and insanely bloody. Also, while we were doing it, several countries that aren't overly fond of us would take this gleaming opportunity to screw us over by selling weapons to insurgent groups. Maintaining a modicum of stability in Iraq while simultaneously handling things in Afghanistan and the other stuff the military is doing at any given time was a strain. That was only Iraq, the nations around it were quiet, offering us basing rights or following Iran's lead in being quiet assholes. You really don't want to imagine that scenario with the entire Mid East.

You also don't want to imagine the global side effects when Iran feels terrified enough to start doing stupid shit in response to the US being stark raving mad.

Maybe, maybe, with the full support of a militarized EU and Russia and China collectively deciding to at worst sit back and eat popcorn, this would almost be feasible but it almost certainly would not be a pleasant process. Anything less, no just no.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

I'm torn on this. I think war is going to happen, but I don't know how I feel about it. On one hand, I'm really anti-war, but on the other, I'm willing to admit that there are a few (very few) circumstances where it's justified. More importantly, part of me thinks that the US has a responsibility to fix the mess it created, but another part of me wonders if trying to fix it will just create an even bigger mess (this mess -is- the result of a progression of previous mess-fixing).

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

A very good start - if we want to find a long term solution - is to stop manufacturing and sell arms to foreign countries. Yes, it makes a LOT of money, but it creates misery everywhere. We have armed this rebel, that rebel for so long we've lost track of what's what.

And another good move would be for us to keep our bloody noses out of other countries' business. I mean, at one time Saddam Hussein (and Gaddafi for that matter) were friends and allies of the west. Then they became enemies and all did not end well.

Leave people and countries alone for pity's sake. Stop feeling we need to intervene and fly troops all over the globe. We don't. As for sending in the military to deal with Ebola... words just fail me.

What we are seeing is a post colonial mess, with some countries (and I include the UK here) still trying to hang on to ideas and places that they never had any right to do in the first place.

War creates vast wealth for some individuals. Peace creates prosperity for most people.
So maybe - as John Lennon once sang - we really should give peace a chance.

[thalassa]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

The US tried keeping our noses out of other countries businesses as their foreign policy for quite some time...and then, ya know (without invoking Godwin)...WWI and II. Europe sort of sucked there. They waited too long to intervene. They poo-pooed at them and wrung their hands expecting that unreasonable people would all the sudden be reasonable.

There are unconscionable people in this world that do unconscionable things. Leaving them alone lets them become a cancer, spreading and infecting as they grow. You cannot reason with them without capitulating to their demands and leaving them in a place of power that will only grow--that is what one should have learned from Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, and yeah, the name that invokes Godwin's Law....and 1000 other men and a few women like them throughout human history.

We wait too long to act. We hope that the problem will go away by ignoring it. We hope that "diplomatic solutions" and "economic intervention" and whatever other happy buzzword we come up with will save the day. Might as well just roll over and beg for some table scraps. We hope that the people will take care of it themselves--somehow, a downtrodden and unarmed, uneducated, beaten and opressed people will overcome superior military strength. Its a lot harder now that we aren't all using muskets. How many more people die when we do nothing?

For all our alleged humanity, we seem to forget that not all that long ago, we were monkeys swiniging from trees and beating our chests over territory. War is a terrible thing. As it should be. Because it should be the last resort--but not always the last tool we take from the tool box. Because if something's not worth killing for, its not worth dying for either. And if you don't think an unconscionable and unreasonable person isn't willing to do both for whatever ideology their twisted brain has bought into (be it a "master" religion or a race), and that it should go unanswered then I really don't know what to say.

Someone has to answer that. And yeah, it means people--good people--on both sides will pay the price, with their lives, their minds, their souls. But that is the price of being human. Of living, breathing, and doing business with monsters and men. And if you want it to stop, you need to look within...and then figure out a way to make everyone on this planet do the same thing (I'd suggest starting with education). Until then, this is the status quo. And when it isn't anymore...we will have found our next Hitler, or we'll have learned our lesson (and that day is not today).

It sucks, but its reality.

Evil flourishes when the rest of us bury our heads in the sand.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Boots here,boots there...On the ground?

The military as an answer to Ebola isn't too shocking. The US military has had disaster assistance as one of its side jobs for ages. The same infrastructure, training and equipment we use to transfer large amounts of heavily armed troops to kick someone's teeth in can also be used to engineers, doctors, food, medicine, prefabricated shelters and a host of other useful stuff. It's the same reason that a bit over 10 years ago when Indonesia and others got hit by a huge Tsunami, Bush called up the Navy. Moving useful crap and trained personnel from point a to point b come hell or high water is one of the things our military excels at.