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    Questions about Gnosticism

    I have studied gnosticism for quite some time now -- years, actually, and I think I can offer a fair bit of information to the forum members.

    Clearly, I may not know the answers to everything, but I will do my best and do research when necessary to be as thorough as possible.

    So, if any of you have any questions, please let me know, in the meantime I will compile some very basic information about classic gnosticism for this thread.

    [mods: Though the most well known branch of gnosticism is Christian Gnosticism, there are several roots to classical gnostic thought including Judaism and Hellenism....so this seemed to be the best place for this topic.....but feel free to move it if you think there is a better spot!]

    Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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    #2
    Re: Questions about Gnosticism

    Can you give a sort of overview of 1) what Gnosticism is, 2) what different *types* of gnosticism there are and how they differ and 3) what constitutes as a Gnostic outlook/philosophy/etc in the modern world?
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #3
      Re: Questions about Gnosticism

      Very interesting but very complex and esoteric stuff. I am under the impression that Gnostic Christianity owes a lot to foreign influences, particularly Hellenic influences such as Greek Philosophy. Many of the things I've read about Gnosticism strengthen this impression. Would that be accurate?
      If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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        #4
        Re: Questions about Gnosticism

        How much influence does Manichaeism have on Christian Gnosticism? Are there any major divergences between the two?
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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          #5
          Re: Questions about Gnosticism

          Another question for the que! for the past year or so I've begun to tease out the Hermetic roots of Neopaganism, starting with the history of the Golden Dawn and similar groups, and going into Kabbalah, alchemy, and a bit of Neo-Platonism and Gnosticism. I'm just beginning to scratch the surface of those last two. How would you describe their relationship to one another, and to the formation of Neopaganism (especially early groups like Gardner)? Do you have any recommendations of sources to look into?

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            #6
            Re: Questions about Gnosticism

            It's great to see some questions here. (and great questions!) I'll get to those next. First, I want to post just a little basic information to start, of which I will expand on as we go -- there is LOTS of information to share.....

            Gnosticism

            There are two main ideologies that define gnosticism:

            1. The acknowledgement that humans have an 'Eternal Light', or 'Spark of the Divine' inherent within them, and that matter, including the human body, is temporal and will pass away.
            2. That 'salvation' ['knowing' who we really are and where we are from] is attainable on earth as a flash of 'gnosis' which can be found when one looks within themselves, not without. The idea is that one does not have to die in order to attain gnosis [salvation] as in classical Christian tradition. One can attain in now, on earth.

            The ellusive nature of Christian salvation, attainable only in death, is not testifiable and cannot be experienced by humans. This prompted a rise in organized clergy who claimed knowledge of salvation through their interpretation of scripture. Alternatively, gnosticism invites, or even demands that we go it alone and that one can achieve salvation now.

            These ideas come straight out of Plato and neoplatonism, and form that which ties all gnostic expression together.
            Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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              #7
              Re: Questions about Gnosticism

              [quote author=thalassa link=topic=1036.msg19132#msg19132 date=1291250076]
              Can you give a sort of overview of 1) what Gnosticism is, 2) what different *types* of gnosticism there are and how they differ and 3) what constitutes as a Gnostic outlook/philosophy/etc in the modern world?
              [/quote]

              1. See above.
              2. That post is coming next!

              3. Okay....my answer above still stands true for today's expressions of Gnosticism.

              For a couple of examples of what 'gnosticism' looks like today, there are several self-identified 'gnostic' churches including the Ecclesia Gnostica and the Apostolic Johannite Church. There are also a couple of other contemporary pseudo-gnostic traditions who identify as 'gnostic' including Sylvie Browne's Novus Spiritus Church and Samael Aun Weor's Gnostic Awakenings so it pays to research your sources.

              Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                #8
                Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                [quote author=Yazichestvo link=topic=1036.msg19139#msg19139 date=1291251639]
                Very interesting but very complex and esoteric stuff. I am under the impression that Gnostic Christianity owes a lot to foreign influences, particularly Hellenic influences such as Greek Philosophy. Many of the things I've read about Gnosticism strengthen this impression. Would that be accurate?
                [/quote]

                Yes! The ideas I posted above are straight from Plato and neoplatonism and are the backbone of gnosticism.
                Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                  #9
                  Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                  MaskedOne, your questions tie in to an explanation of the different gnostic sects, so I will post some information on each of them and then answer your questions with the base information posted for better understanding of the history behind the inception and movement of gnostic information.

                  PLEASE NOTE: If you are at all offended by heretical texts and information that essentially demonizes the Abrahamic God, you will most likely not enjoy reading the following. However, one must take into consideration the political environment which birthed such ideas and how the different philosophies played off of each other. One cannot understand gnosticism in it's fullness without acknowledging it's relationship with other philosophies, including Abrahamic ones.

                  Alexandria was the hub of philosophical ideas during the time of early gnosticism and early Christianity, in the late years BCE and early years of the first millenium. It was in this environment that gnosticism took root. Gnosticism drew from Alexandrian platonism as well as from Jewish biblical mythology and classical Greek and Egyptian antiquity. This is the backdrop for what follows.

                  Generally speaking, I have broken down the different forms of gnosticism from earliest to most contempory.



                  Part 1: JEWISH-BASED GNOSTICISM

                  Early Jewish Gnosticism
                  A substantial portion of the fantastic gnostic mythology and cosmology is based on The Torah. This is due to the fact that many early gnostics (as well as early Christians) were Jewish. Both early Christianity and early gnosticism can be traced back to a failed Jewish rebellion in Jeruselam and the destruction of the Second Temple in 70AD. There was bitter sentiment among many Jews toward their God, Yahweh, for his lack of support for His Chosen People. This gave both Christianity and gnosticism a foothold among Jewish groups. Early Jewish/Christians gave the argument that God's abandonment was due to the fact that most Jewish people did not recognize their Saviour when He came and God was punishing them. Alternatively, Jewish gnostics, influenced by platonic and other pagan philosophies, offered a completely different theory. Gnostic philosophy suggested that the Jewish God, Yahweh was, in reality, not the True God at all but the bad demiurge creator god (cosmology to come), and that Jesus was The Messenger from The True God/Fullness/The All/Pleroma/The Good/The Unknowable, who's job it was to tell the people Who They Really Were, from Who They Came and how to achieve gnosis [salvation]. Of course, suggesting that the God of the Jews and Early Christians was actually 'bad' and that they were worshipping the wrong god, didn't sit well with either group. Early gnosticism had it's hands full proving their legitimacy almost from the start.

                  Sample of Early Jewish Gnostic Text: The Book of Baruch [text begins on page 124]

                  Sethian Gnosticism
                  Sethian Gnosticism is a subset of Jewish Gnosticism in which the adherents give prominance to Adam and Eve's son Seth. Unlike Cane and Abel, who were born of Eve and the demiurge (aka: Yahweh, Yaldabaoth/Samael), according to the Sethians, Seth was born from The Good. He is said to be sperma heteronSample of Sethian Literature: http://books.google.ca/books?idMImaI4bS6-0C&pgPA135&dqthe+secret+book+of+john&h len&eiYev3TJ2CFYeqsAPv_6WfAg&saX&oiboo k_result&ctresult&resnum3&ved0CDwQ6AEw Ag#vonepage&qthe secret book of john&ffalse']The Secret Book of John[/url] [text begins on page 138]



                  Valentinian Gnosticism
                  Valentianian gnosticism is named for it's founder, Egyptian born Valentinos. Valentinos was a convert to Christianity. He was educated in Alexandria where he studied Greek philosophy, Christian thinking and hellenistic Jewish methods of interpreting scripture. It is also believed he was influenced by the Sethian gnostics of his time. Much of Valentinos work is now lost, however, his students and followers continued passing on his ideas by writing their own literature. Valentinian thought is based on the concept of bythos or bathoslogos), among other divine emanations came forth from the depth of the divine mind (nous). Valentinian thought builds on older gnostic ideas and creates a more complex gnostic philosophy.

                  Sample of Valentinian Text: http://books.google.ca/books?idMImaI4bS6-0C&pgPA239&dqthe+gospel+of+truth+gnostic+b ible&hlen&eiTfX3TOCIDYWisQPa0OjYAQ&saX &oibook_result&ctresult&resnum1&ve d0CC4Q6AEwAA#vonepage&qthe gospel of truth]The Book of Truth[/url] [text begins on page 242]



                  Syrian Gnostic Literature
                  Though not absolutely gnostic, three specific Syrian texts describe a mystical wisdom and knowledge reminiscent of gnostic thought. They represent the religious thought of Northern Mesopotamia during the early centuries of the CE and had much influence on gnostic religions. The three texts are: The Songs of Solomon, The Song of the Pearl, and The Book of Thomas (not to be confused with the Gospel of Thomas).

                  Sample Syrian Text: http://books.google.ca/books?idMImaI4bS6-0C&pgPA386&dqgnostic+bible+song+of+the+pea rl&hlen&ei0_X3TM2oKYHAsAPik-C_Ag&saX&oibook_result&ctresult&re snum1&ved0CC4Q6AEwAA#vonepage&qgnostic]The Song of the Pearl[/url] [text begins on page 388]

                  Next:
                  Heremetic Gnosticism
                  Mandaean Gnosticism
                  Manichaean Gnosticism
                  Islamic Gnosticism
                  Catharism
                  Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                    #10
                    Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                    Both of the Jewish gnostic sects you identify valorize Christ. Is there anything you'd identify as Jewish gnosticism that doesn't rely on Christ as divine messenger/son (a proto-Christian view, though I realize that Christianity as such was in its infancy)?

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                      #11
                      Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                      [quote author=Gwen link=topic=1036.msg19333#msg19333 date=1291321444]
                      Both of the Jewish gnostic sects you identify valorize Christ. Is there anything you'd identify as Jewish gnosticism that doesn't rely on Christ as divine messenger/son (a proto-Christian view, though I realize that Christianity as such was in its infancy)?
                      [/quote]

                      The role of Christ as a Messenger or "The Word" is an important one in the structure of gnostic thought (though I wouldn't say that it is absolutely critical). The concept of "The Christ", a "Messiah" or 'Redeemer' is absolutely and originally a Jewish concept that was appropriated by Christianity and used to describe Jesus within a new set of parameters. Gnosticism also appropriated the concept of The Christ and also ascribed the title to certain players in their mythologies of which some included Jesus. However, not always is Christ represented by Jesus in gnostic literature. (I realize you are not saying this, but I wanted to say it so as to eliminate any confusion for those who are reading) Further, those that do acknowledge Jesus as The Christ reject the dualistic quality [being both God and Man at the same time] that classic Christian doctrine ascribes to him. Some suggest he is an angel, while others suggest he is all God, and the 'man' who was on earth was actually just a 'shadow', and he never had an actual physical form. You can see how this would negate much of what Christianity ascribes to in relation to Jesus and his offer of salvation: if he is only an angel, how can he give full salvation? If he is all God, his sacrifice and passion are nullified. That said, and this is just my humble opinion -- acknowledging Jesus as The Christ allowed gnostics to reach out and proselytize to early Christians in a way that they could understand, so, in a sense, the concept was a tool for proselytization.

                      Sorry, I'm working on everyone's questions in between getting out some of the basic info. Please bare with me!
                      Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                        #12
                        Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                        Hermetic Gnosticism

                        Hermetic gnosticism is based on a collection of writings dating from roughly 50CE through to almost 400CE known as the Corpus Hermeticum or the Hermetica (from Codex VI of the Nag Hammadi library). They are named as such after their pseudo-author Hermes Trismegistros (Hermes the thrice great). His Egyptian counterpart is Thoth. The author is accepted as 'unknown' in most academic circles. It's contributions to gnostic thought include the idea of gnosis, or knowledge of the soul. The idea is that one finds the divine within the self and that through gnosis the spirit/soul can transcend the material to the divine. The text that stands out in the Hermetica is Poimandres (composed/compiled near the end of the 2ndnous) = light.

                        Sample from the Corpus Hermeticum: Poimandres [text begins on page 503]
                        Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                          #13
                          Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                          [quote author=cesara link=topic=1036.msg19342#msg19342 date=1291325026]

                          The role of Christ as a Messenger or "The Word" is an important one in the structure of gnostic thought (though I wouldn't say that it is absolutely critical). The concept of "The Christ", a "Messiah" or 'Redeemer' is absolutely and originally a Jewish concept that was appropriated by Christianity and used to describe Jesus within a new set of parameters.

                          [/quote]

                          No worries.
                          The role of Christ as "the word" or logos is part of what intrigues me. I suspect that the Gospel of John was part of the inspiration for this, since it names Christ as the logos who was present a the beginning of time. It could easily be interpreted along those lines. I've heard others link the passage to Philo of Alexandria's Hellenic/Jewish concept of the logos as the son of God and intermediary between him and the world. However, I can't yet seem to get my hands on the actual word-for-word writings of Philo on the logos to see how well it matches up.

                          I don't think such an interpretation of John's Gospel is all that far fetched, personally. I try to keep those rants to a minimum now days, but if anyone ever gets me started on the subject, I think a Hellenic view of Christianity actually makes a lot of sense.
                          If you want to be thought intelligent, just agree with everyone.

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                            #14
                            Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                            [quote author=Yazichestvo link=topic=1036.msg19468#msg19468 date=1291356574]
                            No worries.
                            The role of Christ as "the word" or logos is part of what intrigues me. I suspect that the Gospel of John was part of the inspiration for this, since it names Christ as the logos who was present a the beginning of time. It could easily be interpreted along those lines. I've heard others link the passage to Philo of Alexandria's Hellenic/Jewish concept of the logos as the son of God and intermediary between him and the world. However, I can't yet seem to get my hands on the actual word-for-word writings of Philo on the logos to see how well it matches up.

                            I don't think such an interpretation of John's Gospel is all that far fetched, personally. I try to keep those rants to a minimum now days, but if anyone ever gets me started on the subject, I think a Hellenic view of Christianity actually makes a lot of sense.
                            [/quote]

                            You are very observant. The Gospel of John was most definitely favored by early Gnostics. The concept of logos is commonly accepted as originating in ancient Greece with Heraclitus. However, the conecpt can also be found in Egyptian mythology with Thoth who gave the world 'the word'. As an aside, another gnostic text that references 'the logos' is The Corpus Hermeticum, which was influenced by Egyptian platonism.

                            As for Philo, here is a good source for his use of the term Logos, how he interprets it, and it's influence on early Christianity: The Logos and Its Function in the Writings of Philo of Alexandria: Greek Interpretation of the Hebrew Myth and Foundations of Christianity. by Marian Hillar [ http://www.socinian.org/ ]. I have given it a quick read, but I think I'm gonna read it more carefully today....thanks for the inspiration.
                            Allow me to lend a machete to your intellectual thicket. ~ Captain Jack Sparrow

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                              #15
                              Re: Questions about Gnosticism

                              Wow, cesara, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Great thread, +1!

                              When you have time, I'd really love it if you could talk about the feminine divine in Gnisticism. You wrote a great response once to something I said on the pre-crash forum about that.
                              Great Grandmother's Kitchen

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