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    Anti Gay app

    Apple has removed an iPhone app considered anti-gay following a wave of protests sent through the online petition site Change.org.

    Initially approved and available in the App Store in October, the Manhattan Declaration app was submitted by members of the Manhattan Declaration, a movement launched last year by a number of Christian leaders espousing their condemnation of both gay marriage and abortion rights.

    In approving the app, Apple originally gave it a rating of 4+, meaning it had "no objectionable material."

    But described by Change.org as an application that invites people to join anti-gay and anti-choice campaigns, the Manhattan Declaration app had offered a "survey" with four questions, including "Do you believe in the sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman?" and "Do you support the right of choice regarding abortion?" Users who responded contrary to the beliefs of the group received a message at the end informing them that they answered 0 out of 4 questions correct. The app also invited people to sign up to support and donate to the group's cause.

    In reaction to the app, Change.org created an online petition directed toward Apple CEO Steve Jobs asking that the app be removed for its "hateful and divisive language." Following e-mails from more than 7,700 people sent through Change.org, Apple removed the app Thanksgiving weekend.

    In response to the app's removal, an Apple spokeswoman e-mailed CNET the following statement:

    "We removed the Manhattan Declaration app from the App Store because it violates our developer guidelines by being offensive to large groups of people."

    In its own response yesterday, the Manhattan Declaration said that it's perplexed over Apple's decision to remove the app, saying that "Apple pulled the app shortly after a small but very vocal protest by those who favor gay marriage and abortion."

    Responding to charges that the Manhattan Declaration is homophobic and anti-gay, the group said it doesn't believe that "disagreement" is "gay-bashing" and insists that the language it uses "to defend traditional marriage and the sanctity of human life...is civil, non-inflammatory, and respectful." The group also said it has written to Steve Jobs urging him to restore the app.
    SAUCE

    Questions:
    Is it illegal to think anti-gay and vote anti-gay etc?
    Do you think they should have pulled the app?
    Satan is my spirit animal

    #2
    Re: Anti Gay app

    Apple is a private company and if they wanted to remove the app because their customers were offended by it, that's their business. And although the group protesting may have been small itself, it likely represented the larger demographic of Apple's customers, who tend to be (as a whole) educated, professional and innovative and such people tend to support gay marriage rather than oppose it.

    and I don't think it should be illegal to be anti-gay, but I DO think it should be socially unacceptable. Good for Apple for taking a similar stance.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Anti Gay app

      [quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=1040.msg19195#msg19195 date=1291281846]
      Apple is a private company and if they wanted to remove the app because their customers were offended by it, that's their business. And although the group protesting may have been small itself, it likely represented the larger demographic of Apple's customers, who tend to be (as a whole) educated, professional and innovative and such people tend to support gay marriage rather than oppose it.

      and I don't think it should be illegal to be anti-gay, but I DO think it should be socially unacceptable. Good for Apple for taking a similar stance.
      [/quote]
      Though I do commend Apple for taking a stance against this. I have a sneaking suspicion any app that had something to do with my religion on a serious basis, would also get protested and pulled. :-\
      Satan is my spirit animal

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Anti Gay app

        [quote author=Medusa link=topic=1040.msg19197#msg19197 date=1291282122]
        Though I do commend Apple for taking a stance against this. I have a sneaking suspicion any app that had something to do with my religion on a serious basis, would also get protested and pulled. :-\
        [/quote]

        I dunno about that...just a quick search yields a couple that lean that way, and there are LOADS of Pagan and Witchcraft apps, and lots of Atheist ones as well. iTunes is fairly tolerant and their main customer base is quite liberal, which is why something would get pulled for promoting intolerance, but not necessarily for portraying unorthodox views.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Anti Gay app

          I don't use the iPhone or other Apple products, so I can't conclusively say whether or not the article is correct in stating the 'quiz' or 'poll' said 'you got X number of questions right/wrong'. But, if it was set up as an opinion poll instead of a test, I can't see why Apple would pull that from their catalogue.

          Like DM says, I don't think it should be illegal on a personal level to prefer heterosexuals over homosexuals, or to oppose gay marriage - but I do think it's wrong in the same way that racism, sexism (and it probably falls under sexism to an extent, maybe as 'genderism&#039, ageism, able-bodiedism, etc. is wrong.
          The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Anti Gay app

            [quote author=Medusa link=topic=1040.msg19192#msg19192 date=1291280837]
            Questions:
            Is it illegal to think anti-gay...[/quote]

            Can it be illegal to think anything? How would a person know what another is thinking?

            ...and vote anti-gay etc?
            If something is put up for a vote, but voting against it is illegal, then it isn't really a vote, now, is it?

            [quote author=Medusa link=topic=1040.msg19192#msg19192 date=1291280837]
            Do you think they should have pulled the app?
            [/quote]

            It's a business decision. They did what they felt would be best for their relations with customers. History will judge whether they made the right choice or not.

            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Anti Gay app

              Not to sound non-commital or anything but I'm with B, on this.


              I mean, sure, I have an opinion about the app. But in the end, it's Apple's perogative to choose what apps they do or do not want to support. I hope it works out for them. I would have chosen to pull the app, too.




              "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

              "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

              "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

              "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


              Comment


                #8
                Re: Anti Gay app

                Business-wise, aside from a lot of Apple's customers being more liberal-leaning on average, so are their shareholders. -Most- shareholders only care about money and profits, but that being said if they feel that a customer base might strongly object to something enough for it to affect profits, they might bail, which can cause further problems.

                I would have pulled the app, personal feelings aside and focusing only on who the average customer is.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Anti Gay app

                  To me the questions sound like opinion poll questions, which would be fair enough, i guess. However, if you answer in support of Gay Marriage and Pro Choice, at least according to the article, you are told you got x out of 4 right or wrong. So it is worded like an opinion poll and dealt with as a quiz.


                  More to the point, surely the people that would buy/load that app would be people that know about this group and agree with their principles to some degree anyhow? wouldn't they? or am i being naive about what apps are loaded and for what reasons. I don't have an iPhone or an iPod so i don't know what apps are available and what people get them for lol


                  M
                  In the end, only you know if you were right or wrong, so tolerate others beliefs, no matter how wrong, they may be right...

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Anti Gay app

                    Anyone can download it.

                    I think the objection is that it promotes intolerance. It's the same sort of deal as people reacting strongly to the pedophile book on Amazon. It's absolutely impossible to offer products to virtually everyone and expect that no one is going to be offended. So you have to think, which group is more valuable to our business? The group that will buy/use the product or the group that will be offended by it?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Anti Gay app

                      it does sound like it is promoting intolerance, i agree, but surely there is some description of the apps on the app centre, so people would know that they are downloading this thing from a group of people that promote this level of intolerance anyhow?

                      I only have a BB so i have very limited space to load apps to my phone, and i don't even look at apps that are not going to help me do something. but i guess when you have a lot more space you (the general you, not anyone in particular) might just load any old crap onto the phone?

                      Apple were probably in the right to get rid of it, however, what if these same people complained about the pagan based apps out there, claiming they promoted "Devil Worship" etc, Would Apple be in the right to get rid of them too? What about an app that supports Gay Marriage and Pro Choice? what's to stop people objecting to them as well?

                      Taking out one app because it is distasteful, even to the majority of people, but taking it out because a small number of people complained is setting a precedent that could snowball if it is not handled carefully. Apple, if they don't take care about what they do, or do not ban, could be accused of promoting a certain agenda. and with such a large conservative group in the states that are also consumers, it is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                      Now before anyone gets me wrong, i am very much pro gay marriage and pro choice, but i do believe that everyone has the right to their own opinions. taking away that right, no matter how distasteful their opinion is, is effectively closing the door on freedom of speech on one group over another.

                      (apologies, bit of a ramble!)

                      M
                      In the end, only you know if you were right or wrong, so tolerate others beliefs, no matter how wrong, they may be right...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Anti Gay app

                        [quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=1040.msg19220#msg19220 date=1291290338]
                        Business-wise, aside from a lot of Apple's customers being more liberal-leaning on average, so are their shareholders. -Most- shareholders only care about money and profits, but that being said if they feel that a customer base might strongly object to something enough for it to affect profits, they might bail, which can cause further problems.[/quote]

                        Not to be too picky, but I have to point out the logical inconsistency here...

                        Apple's share holders can't be "liberal leaning" at the same time as "they care only about money and profits."

                        Essentially, you are making the statement that they have (potentially) made a decision based on both a social/political stance and on an economic stance, then are crediting them only with the economic stance.

                        If they are both liberal and economically motivated, and both stances lead to the same end result, it seems to me that they ought to get credit for finding a way to make their moral choices pay off in terms of profit.

                        It's somthing of a fallacy (the fallacy of cynicism? - actually, the fallacy of causual reductionism) to reduce all motives of all companies to a simple profit motive. There are companies - other than those that capitalize on "green" motivations (which can, itself, be a profit making ploy) - which act, at least in part, through a sense of civic responsibility. This, despite the common prejudice that "all profit making institutions care only about explioting people for profit" (will Marx never die? Or is that his ghost still hanging around?).
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Anti Gay app

                          [quote author=B. de Corbin link=topic=1040.msg19240#msg19240 date=1291296449]
                          Not to be too picky, but I have to point out the logical inconsistency here...

                          Apple's share holders can't be "liberal leaning" at the same time as "they care only about money and profits."

                          Essentially, you are making the statement that they have (potentially) made a decision based on both a social/political stance and on an economic stance, then are crediting them only with the economic stance.

                          If they are both liberal and economically motivated, and both stances lead to the same end result, it seems to me that they ought to get credit for finding a way to make their moral choices pay off in terms of profit.

                          It's somthing of a fallacy (the fallacy of cynicism? - actually, the fallacy of causual reductionism) to reduce all motives of all companies to a simple profit motive. There are companies - other than those that capitalize on "green" motivations (which can, itself, be a profit making ploy) - which act, at least in part, through a sense of civic responsibility. This, despite the common prejudice that "all profit making institutions care only about explioting people for profit" (will Marx never die? Or is that his ghost still hanging around?).
                          [/quote]

                          I get what you're saying. I didn't explain myself very well. What I meant was, shareholders care mostly about profits (and I NEVER at any point said that all profit-making instututions care only about exploiting people for profit" and strongly think that is not the case, in fact communist thinking tends to put me in a blind rage) and if they see their profits threatened they may back out (wont always, and some are much more logical than others). If they are more leaning toward the line of thinking in the customer base, this is even more likely to happen as they are more likely to understand these customers taking their dollar elsewhere.

                          And I NEVER EVER EVER EVER would think that companies are driven only by profits. This is so wildly untrue that it's textbook. I'm just saying that a) people make investments mainly for profits....you wouldn't want to invest in a product that would lose your money! and b) investors can choose which companies they invest in and if they have a moral problem with a company they (like customers) can take their dollar elsewhere.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Anti Gay app

                            [quote author=Maulus link=topic=1040.msg19232#msg19232 date=1291292918]
                            it does sound like it is promoting intolerance, i agree, but surely there is some description of the apps on the app centre, so people would know that they are downloading this thing from a group of people that promote this level of intolerance anyhow?

                            I only have a BB so i have very limited space to load apps to my phone, and i don't even look at apps that are not going to help me do something. but i guess when you have a lot more space you (the general you, not anyone in particular) might just load any old crap onto the phone?

                            Apple were probably in the right to get rid of it, however, what if these same people complained about the pagan based apps out there, claiming they promoted "Devil Worship" etc, Would Apple be in the right to get rid of them too? What about an app that supports Gay Marriage and Pro Choice? what's to stop people objecting to them as well?

                            Taking out one app because it is distasteful, even to the majority of people, but taking it out because a small number of people complained is setting a precedent that could snowball if it is not handled carefully. Apple, if they don't take care about what they do, or do not ban, could be accused of promoting a certain agenda. and with such a large conservative group in the states that are also consumers, it is tantamount to cutting off your nose to spite your face.

                            Now before anyone gets me wrong, i am very much pro gay marriage and pro choice, but i do believe that everyone has the right to their own opinions. taking away that right, no matter how distasteful their opinion is, is effectively closing the door on freedom of speech on one group over another.

                            (apologies, bit of a ramble!)

                            M
                            [/quote]

                            A few things. 1) You can't sell to EVERYONE. So you have to decide who is more important as a customer. "Firing" customers is completely normal. Apple made their choice. 2) Apple doesn't just operate in the US, nor does the US even make up the majority of their sales (though it's the largest chunk). So US conservatives aren't really holding that much sway. 3) Even within the US, liberals are much more avid technology consumers. And you don't want to offend the gays, because they spend a TON of money. They're actually a HIGHLY profitable consumer group. As a whole, I can tell you that for things like technology and luxury goods, they're a much more attractive customer target than religious right conservatives.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Anti Gay app

                              [quote author=Medusa link=topic=1040.msg19192#msg19192 date=1291280837]
                              SAUCE

                              Questions:
                              Is it illegal to think anti-gay and vote anti-gay etc? [/quote]

                              No. People can think whatever the hell they want to, and vote for whatever agenda they want to. In this country, that is part of the reason that we have a court system that is supposed to buffer us from the whimsy of the legislative branch, which is chosen by the unruly, uneducated mob that is America. I mean, its not like our founding fathers actually trusted the people that voted, which is at least part of the reason why they restricted the vote so much, and then gave the ultimate power to choose the presidency, and to choose laws to a selected group of individuals.

                              Do you think they should have pulled the app?
                              No. I think its in poor taste, and I would have liked to think that someone would have said "You know, we aren't going to cater to this sort of discrimination." And I don't think that it *should* be an available app either, but I think that it *can* be one. Really, at the end of the day, it their decision---you don't *have* to download the app. Do I find it it analogous to "Choose your White Power or Black Panther or *whatever*" candidate...you betcha. Do I think that those apps should be available? No...but I think that they *can* be available, though I think thats in poor taste as well.

                              TBH, if its legal, and they have a market for it, then I don't think its my decision to make the decision for the company's policy. I vote with my dollars based on their decision.

                              Do I think that it is sad that we live in a society where a good percentage of the population would be horrified at the idea of a White Power app, but are okay with an Anti-gay app? Absolutely.
                              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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