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    #31
    Re: false gods

    Originally posted by Gleb View Post
    Agreed. But I would like to add, that monotheists are bound with their people too. The polytheistic pantheons work differently than the monotheistic ones, in my opinion.
    I agree. But out of curiosity, I wonder if the polys really think, yeah, your god exists too. But mine is the Right One. I mean. You picked that god for a reason over the other. Which bothers me. How is it possible to have so many gods and a big portion of them made the world. I mean..someone has to be telling a big fat fib.
    Satan is my spirit animal

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      #32
      Originally posted by Medusa View Post

      I agree. But out of curiosity, I wonder if the polys really think, yeah, your god exists too. But mine is the Right One. I mean. You picked that god for a reason over the other. Which bothers me. How is it possible to have so many gods and a big portion of them made the world. I mean..someone has to be telling a big fat fib.
      Isn't polytheism usually like, they all exist, but this is the one I've chosen to work with/has chosen to work with me?
      ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

      RIP

      I have never been across the way
      Seen the desert and the birds
      You cut your hair short
      Like a shush to an insult
      The world had been yelling
      Since the day you were born
      Revolting with anger
      While it smiled like it was cute
      That everything was shit.

      - J. Wylder

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        #33
        Re: false gods

        Originally posted by Heka View Post
        Isn't polytheism usually like, they all exist, but this is the one I've chosen to work with/has chosen to work with me?
        Probably. Buuuuuuut. Lesbereal. If you choose to work with a certain god, it's probably for a good serious reason. That you agree with that god. That you think that god is the shiznit. In essence...that god is the right god. Who goes around picking a god they think is the wrong one? Who?

        Human agenda cannot be removed from human faith in the divine.
        Satan is my spirit animal

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          #34
          Re: false gods

          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
          I agree. But out of curiosity, I wonder if the polys really think, yeah, your god exists too. But mine is the Right One. I mean. You picked that god for a reason over the other. Which bothers me. How is it possible to have so many gods and a big portion of them made the world. I mean..someone has to be telling a big fat fib.
          I can't speak for all polytheists, but for me, the creator gods didn't create THIS world, but their world. Because frankly, I don't believe it's possible that fifty different gods created this world in ways that science tells us is not physically possible. So it's not THIS world the stories are about, but their world in the Otherworlds. This is where my literal belief in worlds other than this one comes in real handy... it makes everything else make sense.

          Also, I don't believe that there are any The Right One gods. I work with my gods because I like them, not because they are better or More Right than any other gods. The choice to work with one god over another is very rarely about 'mine is better than yours and my stories are more right than yours' but about what speaks to us personally. It's about what's right for ME, not what's Right, Period.

          My gods aren't always correct, I don't always agree with them, I explicitly disagree with some of the things they've done or said, none of them are infallible, and they certainly aren't The Shiznit.

          So why do I worship and work with them? Because it presses my spirituality buttons in ways that people don't. I like my gods, flaws and all. I like some other people's gods. It fills a need within myself and helps me to be the person that I want to be. Sure, I could do that without any faith or spirituality, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much. My desire for a spiritual outlet is completely hedonistic... it's about me, not other people.

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            #35
            Re: false gods

            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
            I agree. But out of curiosity, I wonder if the polys really think, yeah, your god exists too. But mine is the Right One. I mean. You picked that god for a reason over the other. Which bothers me. How is it possible to have so many gods and a big portion of them made the world. I mean..someone has to be telling a big fat fib.
            You have a point. But I just want to share my piece of thinking at this point:
            I have chosen Djehuty and Bast for some reasons. But I I respect all the other gods equally. I feel more comfortable with Djehuty and Bast. I tried worshipping Khonsu, but soon I realized he was not interested and that he was not a very honest god.
            "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



            Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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              #36
              Re: false gods

              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
              I can't speak for all polytheists, but for me, the creator gods didn't create THIS world, but their world. Because frankly, I don't believe it's possible that fifty different gods created this world in ways that science tells us is not physically possible. So it's not THIS world the stories are about, but their world in the Otherworlds. This is where my literal belief in worlds other than this one comes in real handy... it makes everything else make sense.

              Also, I don't believe that there are any The Right One gods. I work with my gods because I like them, not because they are better or More Right than any other gods. The choice to work with one god over another is very rarely about 'mine is better than yours and my stories are more right than yours' but about what speaks to us personally. It's about what's right for ME, not what's Right, Period.

              My gods aren't always correct, I don't always agree with them, I explicitly disagree with some of the things they've done or said, none of them are infallible, and they certainly aren't The Shiznit.

              So why do I worship and work with them? Because it presses my spirituality buttons in ways that people don't. I like my gods, flaws and all. I like some other people's gods. It fills a need within myself and helps me to be the person that I want to be. Sure, I could do that without any faith or spirituality, but I wouldn't enjoy it as much. My desire for a spiritual outlet is completely hedonistic... it's about me, not other people.
              You seem very familiar with your gods. And your beliefs come off extremely well thought out and sincere. So I ask this with respect. Because I ask it of all people who talk about their gods. Do you believe your gods are literally real or are they a symbol of other things? I ask this because I get different answers from the people under the general umbrella of Pagans. Some believe in the idea of their god without believing in the literal realness of their god. And they still do it with sincerity and clarity of the distinction. When pressed I rarely get someone who is like yeah, God A-Z is actually real. Just wondering where you stand on that.
              Satan is my spirit animal

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                #37
                Re: false gods

                Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                You seem very familiar with your gods. And your beliefs come off extremely well thought out and sincere. So I ask this with respect. Because I ask it of all people who talk about their gods. Do you believe your gods are literally real or are they a symbol of other things? I ask this because I get different answers from the people under the general umbrella of Pagans. Some believe in the idea of their god without believing in the literal realness of their god. And they still do it with sincerity and clarity of the distinction. When pressed I rarely get someone who is like yeah, God A-Z is actually real. Just wondering where you stand on that.
                I am a hard polytheist, so I believe that my gods literally exist. BUT, I believe that they literally exist as entities on another plane of existence, which I (and modern neo-shamanism) call the Otherworlds. I don't believe that they exist here or directly influence here without some intensive interfacing provided by their worshippers.

                As to the nature of these other planes of existence... I honestly don't think too hard on the actual mechanics of that, because there are 'expert' physicists and astrophysicists who can't agree on that point, so what hope do I have of figuring it out? I don't believe that gods are aliens, but I believe they are not native to this particular plane of existence. And I'm just not Thisworld-centric enough to believe that this one plane of existence on this one planet is The Only One. There are enough scientific hypotheses about alternative planes or modes of existence by serious scientists that this all seems very plausible to me, it's just that I believe humanity's long standing tradition of supposed interaction with deities is linked into that.

                Having said that, I do also believe in archetypes, as per Jung and contemporaries. I believe that many people are interacting with collective unconscious style archetypes rather than actual entities. That works for them, but not all of us believe that. This is the biggest difference between soft polytheists and hard polytheists. Humans like to categorise and stereotype concepts, so it makes sense that archetypes have developed around the identities and roles of entities that we have interacted with for thousands of years, just like we have stereotypical images of many real-world figures, roles and occupations.

                At the end of the day, while I respect a 'believe it when I see it' belief-system, I also recognise that modern science can't tell us everything. There are things we don't know. It was not that long ago that things like magnetism were relegated into the realm of 'magick' and mythology. I'm not so egotistical to think that just because we are more advanced now than we were a thousand years ago, that this means we know everything. Just because we can't prove it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It could just be that we don't have the technology to prove it yet. Human history and experience counts for something, in my opinion. There's a difference between disproved and unproven.

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                  #38
                  Re: false gods

                  Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                  Also, as I was taught in Sunday school (United Church of Christ), and the Hubby was taught in RE classes (at his all-boys Catholic boarding school), the death of Jesus saved (and continues to save) anyone hasn't heard his Gospel. This is a pretty standard answer for most mainstream denominations, though there are "solutions" (if one percieves it as a theological problem rather than a theological logical fallacy) as varied as the Mormon mass baptisms and the doctrine of Universalism.
                  This reminded me of a story about missionaries in South America who gave the "good news" to one of their guides who then became very concerned for his tribe. The missionaries assured him that anyone who had not heard the word lived in a state of grace, that it was only after hearing and rejecting the word that one's soul was in peril. After the guide mulled this for a few minutes he asked, "Then why did you tell me?"

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                  Probably. Buuuuuuut. Lesbereal. If you choose to work with a certain god, it's probably for a good serious reason. That you agree with that god. That you think that god is the shiznit. In essence...that god is the right god. Who goes around picking a god they think is the wrong one? Who?

                  Human agenda cannot be removed from human faith in the divine.
                  I have a lot of great neighbors, and I can honestly say that I respect every one of them, but there are just few that I go out a do things with outside of the neighborhood. Maybe it's sort of like that.

                  "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                    #39
                    Re: false gods

                    I liken it to finding a spouse or choosing a university. I don't believe there is only ONE person in all of the billions that would make a good spouse for me, or only ONE university at which I can get the best education.

                    had I been born on a different continent, or grown up there, I likely would have married a different person, or studied at a different school. Same with pantheons. If I come from a particular ancestral line or live in a certain country then I am likely to work with the pantheon associated with that. Doesn't mean every other pantheon is wrong, or less than.

                    For people today, who have more info at hand about other pantheons..there is less of a direct line to any particular pantheon, but still people tend to feel drawn to a particular one, or often called to a particular pantheon or god.

                    Like a spouse, or university.

                    If one is truly monotheistic, then it follows that if they are right, and their god is the only god, then everyone else is wrong and their gods are false.

                    Most polytheists don't make an issue of who the pagan next door is worshiping, they don't wring their hands over it, nor do they see it as a personal insult against their god, that the pagan next door isn't worshiping their god.

                    Many polytheists don't feel they god shopped and chose the coolest one, they feel called by their god.

                    Decades ago I tried "god shopping" it didn't work. When I let myself honestly listen to where I was called...I followed it and have never looked back.

                    Sometimes realizing that a particular god or pantheon "is the shiznit" may be the way one IS called. The recognize something in that god that is calling to them. Others don't see it, because they are not called to it.

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                      #40
                      Re: false gods

                      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                      In essence...that god is the right god. Who goes around picking a god they think is the wrong one? Who?.
                      Oh, I certainly believe my gods are the right gods... for me, personally, at this particular point in my life. I really don't think others have chosen wrong, just differently. I know this analogy might seem a little flippant, but it's like I'm looking into archery, my dad's taken up learning how to shoot different guns. They're sort of similar activities, but at the same time I'm not really into guns, and he's not into archery. Did one of us choose the wrong activity? Nope, we're just different people, who have different interests and find different things rewarding/fulfilling, however you want to word it. Like I said, maybe not the best thing to compare it to, but that's basically how I see it. Someone who follows a different deity is doing something differently than me, but they're doing what's right for them... and what's right for them might not be right for me, and the other way around.
                      Hearth and Hedge

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                        #41
                        Re: false gods

                        I totally get it.

                        For me, personally? I find it appalling to pick the creator of the entire universe. I feel if there is One True One, you can't exactly pick.

                        But I don't believe in one true one or 1 billion true ones.

                        In essence I guess that's me picking the true one.
                        Satan is my spirit animal

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                          #42
                          Re: false gods

                          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                          I totally get it.

                          For me, personally? I find it appalling to pick the creator of the entire universe. I feel if there is One True One, you can't exactly pick.

                          But I don't believe in one true one or 1 billion true ones.

                          In essence I guess that's me picking the true one.
                          My gods didn't create the universe.

                          Odhinn took part in the creation of some of the Nine Worlds, but the universe (and some of the Nine Worlds) was already here when He and His brothers came along. Norse mythology claims nothing in regards to the creation of Earth or the universe.

                          In the grand scheme of gods and polytheistic pantheons, very few (of hundreds) claim to have created worlds, let alone the universe.

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                            #43
                            Re: false gods

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            I agree. But out of curiosity, I wonder if the polys really think, yeah, your god exists too. But mine is the Right One. I mean. You picked that god for a reason over the other. Which bothers me. How is it possible to have so many gods and a big portion of them made the world. I mean..someone has to be telling a big fat fib.
                            For me it is more that humanity shares experience with a common spiritual nature that exists within the world. As we interact and interpret our interactions with this spiritual nature. The Gods of other pantheons are not only based around the experiences with those Gods attributed to 'large-scale', for lake of better terms, things like water, but also with experiences with the spiritual nature of their local extensions, like rivers, ponds and oceans, etcetera. So it is certainly possible for the Gods to be placed into different personalities or beings based on the interactions of each society and people with those respective physical existences.

                            That is my initial view on the subject at least. :^^:

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            For me, personally? I find it appalling to pick the creator of the entire universe. I feel if there is One True One, you can't exactly pick.
                            For me the creation of the universe is not something I concern myself with, nor does it play a major role in my religion. The Gods exist because the physical universe exists, and what exists physically has a spiritual nature to it. To me the Gods, and the universe have always existed without beginning or end, or at least that is how I approach such questions. I don't really think or believe anything about the creation or origin of the universe or existence. It simply just becomes too much of a mess.

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                              #44
                              Re: false gods

                              Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
                              what exists physically has a spiritual nature to it.
                              heh, I would have said it the other way round, ie, "what exists spiritually has a physical nature to it." There really is no difference, though, they go together like phloem and xylem.

                              "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                                #45
                                Re: false gods

                                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                                My gods didn't create the universe.

                                Odhinn took part in the creation of some of the Nine Worlds, but the universe (and some of the Nine Worlds) was already here when He and His brothers came along. Norse mythology claims nothing in regards to the creation of Earth or the universe.

                                In the grand scheme of gods and polytheistic pantheons, very few (of hundreds) claim to have created worlds, let alone the universe.
                                That seems a smart move to not claim creation to be honest. I find that more believing than if a god said yeah, I made it all. I did not know this. Thanks for the share!
                                Satan is my spirit animal

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