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    divine intervention

    You guys have got me going this time. Denarius used the words "divine intervention" saying that spontaneous remission of cancer could not necessarily be considered divine intervention. I immediately wondered what would be considered divine intervention. I think it would depend upon how a person views the divine. For example, if person sees the entirety of the universe as an embodiment of divinity, then there is no occurrence that is not divine. For a person who sees the divine as separate from the material world, then only some things would be seen as divine, and, indeed, as intervention. I imagine there are other variations on the theme.

    Anyway, two questions: (1) how do you see divinity? (2) what would constitute divine intervention?

    "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

    #2
    Re: divine intervention

    For me, the universe is "divine," and, as you suggest, that means that everything (and nothing) could be called "divine intervention." Including getting cancer.

    But it just doesn't seem to me to make sense to refer to anything as divine intervention when everything falls into the same category. To name something is to differentiate it, and when all things fall into the same category, it does not seem to make sense to separate them out - if that makes sense...

    It would be like talking about your oxygen and my oxygen when we are both in the same room breathing the same air, I guess.
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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      #3
      Re: divine intervention

      I consider divine intervention to be like the literary concept of deus ex machina - the chariot of the Gods that would whisk the hero away from peril. In books, it can be a cheesy plot device, but it does happen in real life.

      A small example - my hubby was taking me to work one night. It had just started raining, so all the oil was still on the surface of the roads, and there were people who had run into barriers & up sidewalks all the way to the freeway. There's a gnarly interchange out here known as 'the Spaghetti Bowl', and there's a nasty curve on it. Well, as we were nearing the 'Charleston curve', a silver pick-up passed us. At the same time, it sounded like someone knocked on my car door. Three good, solid raps. Well, my hubby naturally slowed down, because we were both all 'wtf was that?-ing' over the noise. Within seconds of him slowing down, that silver pick-up truck whooshed by the nose of our car sideways & hit the concrete divider hard enough to be facing the wrong way.

      spagbowl.jpg

      If the knocking had not made us slow down, that truck would have side-swiped us - and since it was one of those huge monstrosities, & we were in a Dodge Neon, it would not have ended well for us. The knocking sound never happened again. There ya have it - divine intervention. Or, lucky coincidence, depending on your point of view. Or even magical thinking - assigning meaning to a random event. I can see it all three ways, but I prefer to believe that a friendly spirit drifted by & rapped on the car door.
      The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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        #4
        Re: divine intervention

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        You guys have got me going this time. Denarius used the words "divine intervention" saying that spontaneous remission of cancer could not necessarily be considered divine intervention. I immediately wondered what would be considered divine intervention. I think it would depend upon how a person views the divine. For example, if person sees the entirety of the universe as an embodiment of divinity, then there is no occurrence that is not divine. For a person who sees the divine as separate from the material world, then only some things would be seen as divine, and, indeed, as intervention. I imagine there are other variations on the theme.

        Anyway, two questions: (1) how do you see divinity? (2) what would constitute divine intervention?
        1) I have two answers for this question, depending on what we mean by 'divinity'. As a panentheist I believe in all-pervasive, immanent 'Divine Source' within all things. This differs slightly from pantheists like Corbin (the universe is divine) in that while I believe the universe is divine, I believe that The Divine also transcends the universe... it is within and beyond everything that we see and experience. It is pervasive and immanent, yet transcendent and impersonal. This still means that everything is 'divine' in some sense... because everything holds within in that spark of The Divine.

        I am also a hard polytheist, so as well as my belief in a panentheistic Divine Source, I believe in a number of literal entities who exist in the Otherworlds and who posses some limited ability to interface directly with Thisworld. They are divine in that they are gods/deities, but they are not the same as The Divine. I feel that they are more accurately described as powerful entities who are more in-tune with their Divine Spark. They are 'divine' and 'divinities' because that's how we refer to them.... their ability to interface with Thisworld and cause energetic and physical changes leads us to call them 'divine' and to call their direct actions 'divine intervention'. But they are not the same as The Divine.

        2) I don't believe that The Divine carries out acts of divine intervention. To me the Divine is an impersonal force that cannot be directly communicated with. It is concerned with the large picture, not with our individual tiny lives which mean nothing to it. We can tap into it's energy, we can feed back into it's energy, and we can honor it, but it doesn't tap back. I think that The Divine is equally as concerned about us as individuals as it is with individual plants or birds or snakes. I don't think it pays attention to us personally, and I don't think that it intervenes on our behalf.

        I believe that deities do, though. And I believe that spirits here in Thisworld do sometimes also. I've had an experience similar to Ophidia's where as a child the wooden frame around our fuse box caught fire. 'Something' physically woke my dad up at 2am and when he couldn't turn the light on, he went outside to the fuse box, saw the fire and put it out. His shouting then woke mum up, even though he was outside and she shouldn't have been able to hear him shouting. The fire brigade told us that ten more minutes would have seen our roof catch fire, and we'd probably have lost the house. Divine intervention? We actually put it down to our family's protective spirit, who has made itself known in other small ways. So 'spirit intervention' perhaps. But I think both stories demonstrate the sort of 'divine intervention' that I believe in... a spirit or powerful entity/deity extends their metaphorical hand to cause enough immediate change in Thisworld that it changes the course of our action and causes or avoids a particular scenario.

        Part of my opinion here ties in with my work with the Nornir and wyrd and orlog, but that's probably beyond the scope of this question. Suffice is to say that from what I understand, there are certain restrictions on 'divine intervention' based on who is the target and who is the deity wanting to do it, and whether or not it is allowable based on our orlog, the current Pattern of wyrd and any events that are already lined up for us.

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          #5
          Re: divine intervention

          So does it work the other way. You are an asshole and the divine one has had enough of your cutting in traffic. So it throws that car into park in front of you and you veer and crash a fiery painful death.

          Because if they intervene for you, then they intervene for you.

          Like, yeah, she's a c^^nt. Let's give her cancer of the colon.

          Oh he's a brat. He's only 3 but yeah, Ebola for joo.

          Nope. Divine intervention is just what you wish happens when something good happens by the skin of your knee. It's still all in your head.
          Satan is my spirit animal

          Comment


            #6
            Lol, you gave a 3 yo Ebola....
            ThorSon's milkshake brings all the PF girls to the yard - Volcaniclastic

            RIP

            I have never been across the way
            Seen the desert and the birds
            You cut your hair short
            Like a shush to an insult
            The world had been yelling
            Since the day you were born
            Revolting with anger
            While it smiled like it was cute
            That everything was shit.

            - J. Wylder

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              #7
              Re: divine intervention

              Originally posted by Medusa View Post
              So does it work the other way. You are an asshole and the divine one has had enough of your cutting in traffic. So it throws that car into park in front of you and you veer and crash a fiery painful death.

              Because if they intervene for you, then they intervene for you.

              Like, yeah, she's a c^^nt. Let's give her cancer of the colon.

              Oh he's a brat. He's only 3 but yeah, Ebola for joo.

              Nope. Divine intervention is just what you wish happens when something good happens by the skin of your knee. It's still all in your head.
              The standard definition of 'divine intervention' is a positive act of a God. When a God picks a person up & smacks them into a wall, it's divine retribution. Or simply an 'act of God/s'. Gods can be fickle and petty and have poor impulse control, so yeah, acts of God/s.
              The forum member formerly known as perzephone. Or Perze. I've shed a skin.

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                #8
                Re: divine intervention

                For some strange reason,my butt has avoided death(that I should not have lived through) about 6 times...Electrocution,going down a flight of stairs and through a glass door(While VERY stoned),almost drowning,Riding out a typhoon on a destroyer,Falling on my head as a kid onto concrete(hanging by my knees on a cloth line),jumping off a one story roof trying to fly....So ether some deity likes me,or just isn't going to let me off that easy..(don't want to know if the second case is true...
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                  #9
                  Re: divine intervention

                  Originally posted by Ophidia View Post
                  Gods can be fickle and petty and have poor impulse control, so yeah, acts of God/s.
                  This comment just brought to the surface of my mind something that has been going around in my head for decades. In the movie "Erik the Viking" (which I suggest everyone watch, just because it's funny as hell, though not a 'good' movie, and even though this is sort of a spoiler if you haven't seen it, but doesn't really impact too much), the gods are portrayed as petulant children. Childish, selfish, moody, and with all the power that the gods possess. They've been around for such a long time, that it's sometimes hard to think that they still understand the mortal condition and the sense of urgency that our short lives give us.

                  Perhaps in the case of "intervention", it's a matter of them happening to be looking in your direction at the time and realizing "Crap! That guy believes in me and may just bite the big one! I should help out!", while "retribution" is more of a "Hmm, I'm in a bad mood, and I wonder what would happen if I did this to someone? Where's that girl that pissed me off the other day?"

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                    #10
                    Re: divine intervention

                    So how about a god like Zeus. Does he practice divine penetration?
                    Satan is my spirit animal

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: divine intervention

                      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                      So how about a god like Zeus. Does he practice divine penetration?
                      Except for that one time he was a golden shower.
                      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: divine intervention

                        Originally posted by Ophidia View Post
                        The standard definition of 'divine intervention' is a positive act of a God. When a God picks a person up & smacks them into a wall, it's divine retribution. Or simply an 'act of God/s'. Gods can be fickle and petty and have poor impulse control, so yeah, acts of God/s.
                        Not to mention the fact that sometimes we piss them off and are in need of a kick up the bum.

                        Sometimes I think there is a bit too much human ego around when it comes to deities. I think that sometimes they just don't care about us, or particularly like us, or actively dislike what we are doing. It's not all benevolence and hanging around waiting to do something nice for us little humans over here in our little world.

                        And then sometimes, things happen, whether they be good or bad, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with deities or spirits whatsoever.

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                          #13
                          Re: divine intervention

                          My view on divinity is similar to Rea'ya's: both immanent and transcendent. Sort of like you can see the artist in the painting, but the artist is much more than the painting. Honestly, this reality may be just one of many paintings stacked against the wall. Or book or however you want to refer to a creative project.

                          This makes the idea of intervention interesting. Could the artist repaint the picture? Sure. Could the author rewrite the book? Sure. Could the painting/book/whatever ask for this attention? It sometimes feels like something I have created is asking for attention in my life. I would certainly like to think that the poem that is our existence is sometimes reviewed by the author, but I don't know. Maybe we are imbued with divinity because that's our job now.

                          I, too, have had experiences that defy material explanation, but I don't know that it is divine intervention so much as part of the story that we really don't understand. It has been said that it is a wise to know what you don't know, and this is something I don't know. Simply choosing to describe the experience of existence as "divine" is interesting to me, based, at least for me, almost entirely on intuition and feeling. A huge leap of faith.

                          "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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                            #14
                            Re: divine intervention

                            My view on divinity falls into place with the Kami being the spiritual nature to everything in the universe which occupies a physical nature, and in some cases they exist without one such as the Kami of creative forces. In a sense, the world around us is also the Kami, but while spiritual and physical natures exist as two separate natures within the same universe they are not as melded as being two sides of a singular nature.

                            Divine intervention is a really tricky topic for me to really come to a conclusion on. On one front, since everything in the world is divine in some manner, everything that occurs within the universe is divine intervention. On the other hand that also means that also means that every human action is also divine intervention, since human beings also have Kami within themselves as their spiritual nature.

                            Eh, sorry. I haven't really put too much time or study into this topic, so my answer isn't as articulate as I would have liked. :shakefist:

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