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**DanieMarie** · 02 Dec 2010, 01:55

Re: PABBIS

ARG.

While some of those deal with mature content, it IS grades k-12. What's wrong with 17-18 year olds reading a Toni Morrison novel???

I read several of those books in grades 11 and 12, for school. And I'm going to go on a limb here and say that most of those books are in high schools, as I don't think Slaughterhouse Five or Handmaid's Tale even appeals to 10-year-olds.

**Ophidia** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:16

Re: PABBIS

I think their website would be much more useful if it contained synopsis(es) of the books, instead of just listing them & making me look up the ones that are unfamiliar.

[quote author=DanieMarie link=topic=1049.msg19205#msg19205 date=1291283752]
ARG.

While some of those deal with mature content, it IS grades k-12. What's wrong with 17-18 year olds reading a Toni Morrison novel???

I read several of those books in grades 11 and 12, for school. And I'm going to go on a limb here and say that most of those books are in high schools, as I don't think Slaughterhouse Five or Handmaid's Tale even appeals to 10-year-olds.
[/quote]

Slaughterhouse Five and A Catcher in the Rye were both in my junior high school libraries. There's not much difference between 10 & 11 there, only about 6 months (and the grade level from 5th to 6th), so what would make a book more age-appropriate for an 11-year-old than for a 10 1/2-year old? Fahrenheit 451 was pretty intense, but it was required reading for my 5th-grade class.

I just don't think books can be judged on a generalized scale for ages of people. What makes the difference is the relative mental/emotional maturity of the child, how the child understands what they read, and if they have someone with which to discuss the material - and their desire to read. If your kid wants to read, good! Let 'em read! From the moans and groans that were heard whenever a teacher mentioned 'book report' or 'required reading' from everyone, I don't think parents have as much to worry about when it comes to kids picking up books and reading them as they might imagine.

**Dufonce** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:23

Re: PABBIS

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1049.msg19209#msg19209 date=1291284972]
I think their website would be much more useful if it contained synopsis(es) of the books, instead of just listing them & making me look up the ones that are unfamiliar.
[/quote]

they didnt really give a synopsis of the stories themselves but they did at least say why they oppose the book, and did pull out some quotes for some of them. just gotta scroll past the list and find the book in question

**Ophidia** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:26

Re: PABBIS

[quote author=Dufonce link=topic=1049.msg19210#msg19210 date=1291285422]
they didnt really give a synopsis of the stories themselves but they did at least say why they oppose the book, and did pull out some quotes for some of them. just gotta scroll past the list and find the book in question
[/quote]

Ah, all I got was the list - didn't actually 'click here' to continue, lol.

**DanieMarie** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:39

Re: PABBIS

[quote author=perzephone link=topic=1049.msg19209#msg19209 date=1291284972]
I think their website would be much more useful if it contained synopsis(es) of the books, instead of just listing them & making me look up the ones that are unfamiliar.

Slaughterhouse Five and A Catcher in the Rye were both in my junior high school libraries. There's not much difference between 10 & 11 there, only about 6 months (and the grade level from 5th to 6th), so what would make a book more age-appropriate for an 11-year-old than for a 10 1/2-year old? Fahrenheit 451 was pretty intense, but it was required reading for my 5th-grade class.

I just don't think books can be judged on a generalized scale for ages of people. What makes the difference is the relative mental/emotional maturity of the child, how the child understands what they read, and if they have someone with which to discuss the material - and their desire to read. If your kid wants to read, good! Let 'em read! From the moans and groans that were heard whenever a teacher mentioned 'book report' or 'required reading' from everyone, I don't think parents have as much to worry about when it comes to kids picking up books and reading them as they might imagine.
[/quote]

I agree with you, and I didn't mean it that way. I just meant that most elementary school kids probably wouldn't be interested in those books anyway, so they're more likely to be in middle school and high school, and most of the "objectionable" content seems to be sexual, which I don't really see as a big deal if there's a context for it (which there is in every single one of those books).
And I agree about not generalizing books by age. In general, by the time a kid is able to understand and process the writing in a lot of those books, they'd be old enough to also understand mature content within the context of the book and be able to discuss it. I've never heard of anyone read Go Ask Alice and be all like "hey, let's go use drugs! I read about it in this book!"

**DanieMarie** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:45

Re: PABBIS

[quote author=Dufonce link=topic=1049.msg19210#msg19210 date=1291285422]
they didnt really give a synopsis of the stories themselves but they did at least say why they oppose the book, and did pull out some quotes for some of them. just gotta scroll past the list and find the book in question
[/quote]

I read through a few of them for books I've read, and yeah it sounds terrible out of the context of the book but within the context it all makes sense. For example, the Handmaid's Tale is an Orwellian type story about a religious right society that took away the status of women and the role of the main character is to bear children for the elite (since a nuclear war made most of the population infertile). Of course there's sex in the book! I don't think it's inappropriate for teens. I read it in grade 12 as part of my English class and used it in my final government exam (our exams that are largely for entry into university) for English Literature 12, comparing and contrasting it with 1984.

**Ophidia** · 02 Dec 2010, 02:53

Re: PABBIS

I read through some of them, including the other link to classkc.org. These people are extremely hung up on language.

Like a kid is gonna reach high school never hearing profanity? Especially now?

Yeaaaah, we've come quite a ways since Carlin's '7 Dirty Words' skit.

**ChainLightning** · 02 Dec 2010, 03:30

Re: PABBIS

Hmm. I guess I'll just sort of lump this group in with PETA and MADD. I mean, there's a sound logic, underlying their claim. But the minute they've started taking a side, saying this book is or is not considered bad... they've proven an agenda. And an agenda that I have a ton of trouble with.

Nope. I will just consider them another group that takes themselves too seriously, a self-righteous movement to control others' choices. Thank you, no - I can think for myself and decide for myself.

**DanieMarie** · 02 Dec 2010, 03:50

Re: PABBIS

The thing that bugs me the most about this list is that it contains some of the greatest pieces of 20th Century literature. I not only have no problem with those books being in schools, but I think they -should- be there. Are we supposed to shelter our kids to the point of sheer ignorance?

**Maulus** · 02 Dec 2010, 04:10

Re: PABBIS

Surely the point of having such a varied selection of books is to appeal to different readers tastes as well as show the variation in writing styles. i didn't know a lot of the books listed, but i was surprised to see River God by Wilbur Smith in the list, i read that about 10 years back, i found it quite difficult to read to start with, but it was an excellent book when i got into it. Truman Copote's In Cold blood could becontroversial too but it is still a very interesting book to read, and seeing as these books would, i guess, be discussed in class or in class papers, i can see why they would be on the list.

Oh, Wait, Secret Diary of Adrian Mole? i read that when i was the same age as the character in the book, and it was like describing what i was going through at the time, how is that bad? :-[

Besides, if you got rid of all the "bad" books in the list, you would end up with students that were bored of reading the same crap over and over, and they would likely never pick up a book for pleasure after school.

Also, i notice no Shakespeare in the list, you know where he deals with murders etc, surely they should be listed as bad books too?

M

_{**fixed code~thal}

**DanieMarie** · 02 Dec 2010, 05:41

Re: PABBIS

[quote author=Maulus link=topic=1049.msg19229#msg19229 date=1291291840]

Also, i notice no Shakespeare in the list, you know where he deals with murders etc, surely they should be listed as bad books too?

M

_{**fixed code~thal}
[/quote]

I doubt that the people making these lists could get through Shakespeare.

**thalassa** · 02 Dec 2010, 05:50

Re: PABBIS

Look! Its parentally-led in-school book banning under a different name!!

Seriously.

TBH, I read Confessions of Nat Turner, and The Color Purple, along with another half dozen of those books in high school--15 years ago, along with Faulkner's As I Lay Dying and dozens of other *bad* books...and I didn't even have to go to the library, because they were already on our book shelf at home.

IMO, the only book that is "bad" is one that is so poorly written that I either can't finish it, or have found no redeeming value to the information within it (a classification I reserve for non-fiction books). While there have been plenty of books that I didn't like, I can probably say that I can count the number of "bad" books and not reach double digits. And, in many of those cases, I learned more from a book that I didn't "like" because it *did* make me uncomfortable, ashamed, disgusted, etc.

Because...at the end of the day, reading is as mostly about thinking. And if you only think about the things you agree with and that make you feel nice and fuzzy, you never grow or expand your mind. ...of course, I think more than anything that is what these parents fear. They don't want their children expanding their minds because they, themselves are afraid.

Don't get me wrong...some of those books on that list, I do question the assigned use of in a school setting (they *did* pick out the most provocative quotes, and I'll bet most parents don't go out and pick the book up and read it) or I would question the age group and setting that they are being read in. But, I think, in the end I'll probably do what my mom did--get a second copy of the book, read the darn thing, and talk about it. My mom never told me I couldn't read a book--actually I was allowed to read *far* more provocative books than I was allowed to see the equivalent of on television (hmmm...maybe that was a good strategy to inspire reading), at most she'd look at the cover and say something along the lines of, "That one has some interesting stuff in it, if you need to, we can talk about it."

...but yeah, that website has a total agenda to push.

**MaskedOne** · 02 Dec 2010, 07:43

Re: PABBIS

Heh, the Giver was an 8th grade book project and I still find the society described there scary as hell (which admittedly is the point) but it's good literature. Hell if memory serves its also award winning.

I don't know whether to shoot this group for a crappy acronym or trying to ban good books. Then again if they think the Giver is bad then I want to see their reactions to Dad handing me a book about Sobibor by one of the survivors and another by a partisan of the Army Ludowa while I was in eigth grade. The society in the Giver was theoretical and written for kids. The other two were very real and not censored for yoing minds.

**B. de Corbin** · 02 Dec 2010, 08:37

Re: PABBIS

I'm endlessly fascinated by the idea of banning books.

It seems that the groups that are most vocal about improving society by eliminating certain books almost inevitably fail to include the most dangerous book that exists in the Western cannon.

I've never seen anybody attempt to justify a war, genocide, slavery, prejudice, or even murder by citing Slaughterhouse Five, The Color Purple, The Catcher in the Rye, 1984, etc., etc.

But which book has been used for the last 1300 years for that purpose? Why don't these groups want IT banned?

Something funky is going on here...

If it were only possible for human beings to learn how to make theory correspond with reality, the world would be a different place.

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