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Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

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    #16
    Re: Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

    I agree with MonSno for the most part, but my experience is that how independent the shadow self is (and therefore how much independent control it has over Innerworlds things) depends on the person. There is also a certain amount of individual belief that plays into that as well... which largely comes down to whether you define the shadow self as the suppressed components of the Ego, or as the contra-gendered 'fetch' that is considered to be a part of the soul complex in certain belief systems. But otherwise... what MonSno said applies to a large proportion of people who are doing core shamanic Innerworlds work.
    Oh I forgot to mention this point (I was replying in a hurry before work and see I made a few sloppy typos ^^). I didn't realise how widespread all these ideas were (maybe I AM a shamanist after all, just not by design!). I do actually subscribe to the 3-selves view of the soul and am familiar with the fetch and its role. This was something I incorporated into my practices when I was exploring the Anderson Feary family of traditions. I've never come across the theory that THIS could be my shadow self, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea. I always considered it as my 'younger-self'.. more animalistic in ways, but also a blank slate, spiritually 'pure' as I was at birth.. and aware of the things I knew at that time, before my journey here progressed and defined my world-view. So I can kinda see how sometimes the fetch could seem alien to me, but on the whole I feel it is a positive part of my soul and an important go-between bringing images and messages from my deeper self.

    I'm slowly making my way through some of your posts in the shamanism sub-forums. There is so much information I'm still to discover, and your posts are a great place to start and decide where I need to research further..
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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      #17
      Re: Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
      There's a lot to think about. I don't really identify as a shamanist, but working with spirits and a believe in the spirit worlds is integral to my beliefs. After losing my faith I needed to start exploring these places again, and daresay the vivid journey I recently experienced was a spirit reaching out and letting me know that yes.. these places DO exist and yes, it's okay to believe again. As such, the debate about exactly where I am going, or what school of thought I belong to, while interesting, isn't really THAT important to me. I just have to be aware that there are differences and to trust that my guides know where I need to be.
      You don't have to identify as anything. We shamanists tend to use the terminology because it helps sort out in our own heads who is doing what, that's all. I am particularly guilty of this, specifically because I recognise that core shamanism, Innerworlds work and many of the guided meditation and inner temple programs that may or may not be marketed as 'shamanism' are pretty much the same thing. So I use the terminology that I am familiar with. Just because you do it doesn't mean you have to identify as it. But it's one of the faults of human verbal communication... that we all use the same words for different things, or different words for the same things, or in some cases, both at once!

      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
      I've been back to Rotokia since and everything is as it should be. Tangible, colourful and in some ways 'vivid', but very much images in my head. There is something I forgot to mention though. The first vision, that was vivid but didn't feel nearly as 'real' as the second, was done to drumming. I'd never journeyed to drums before but as Ross Heaven recommended it I thought I'd find a track on youtube and give it a go. I wonder if that could have affected where I went during that journey?
      The primary difference between drumming and meditation techniques is that drumming is an excitatory method and so tends to send you into trance rather than a meditative state. In most cases, trance is the altered state of consciousness (ASC) that makes it easier to travel externally into the Otherworlds. Meditative states usually turn one inwards, which lends itself to Innerworlds work. Having said that, trance states will also get you to the Innerworlds... it's just easier to leave your body via trance than meditation. At least, that's the way it works for most people. Meditation vs trance usually cause different changes to your brainwave frequency, which can influence where you are going but which also opens your mind to difference levels of experience. So Innerworlds work done via trance may feel deeper, more profound or less controllable than your standard guided meditation. Unless you are skilled at very deep meditation (which most people outside of really dedicated Eastern traditions or Western monastic traditions aren't) then trance states are likely to get you better serious long term results when doing Innerworlds work. And very, very few people can reach the Otherworlds via meditative states.

      So yes, the fact that your journey was done via drumming (a trance state) than meditation may had contributed to the difference in experience. Did the ASC itself feel any different to you?

      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
      This confused me in the past and now. I used to think I was the only person in the world who had a place like Rotokia. Then when I was 18 and old enough to join the Pagan Federations Network Northwest (I went to university in Liverpool that year), I started to meet other pagans for the first time. I met a lovely lady who introduced me to the fey and told me that Rotokia wasn't unique to me put that many, many people have created such a place. She called it her 'temple'.. and told me how it would collect dust if she left it too long, and people there would get angry with her!

      It was a few years later that I added the forest. When I'd gone off the rails a bit (when I had blurred the lines between this world and Rotokia so much that I missed an exam because I was sitting on a pool table talking like Gollum), an elder witch advised me to create a safe point in the astral from which to enter Rotokia.. so that I could ground myself on my way in (there is a spirit called 'James' who acts like a bouncer on the door to rotokia. So the forest should really be my temple.

      And yet when I was doing the course with Jocelyn I made the routes to the Temples of Earth, Sun, Moon and Stars, begin in Rotokia. So I've kinda confused the system somewhat.

      I'm actually starting again through these Temples as I work to clear out whatever it is that's blocking my energy. So I'm thinking of changing it so I enter them from the forest. Maybe this is what my friend meant that day, when she said 'you won't need Rotokia one day'. Maybe the time has come to move my spiritual center out of Rotokia.

      So much to think about. >.<
      I call it the 'inner temple' because that's the term I encountered way back when I was a teen Wiccan. At that stage I knew nothing about shamanism, but did some guided meditations and learned through books to cultivate an inner temple. I've seen the term used in core shamanism books, but sometimes it's just called 'home base' or something like that. In classical shamanism there's no inner temple, because you are in external worlds... your 'home base' is likely to be the home of your spirit guides or deities, or some secluded neutral zone that you've managed to find and feel confident leaving your things in (at risk of them being stolen, damaged or otherwise disappearing). Those of us who do both will usually have an inner temple in the Innerworlds, from which we can then launch ourselves (personally I find that MUCH easier than launching straight into the Otherworlds). Some people will astral travel and find a gateway from the Astral Plane.

      Really, the inner temple or home base or whatever is just the area of the Innerworlds that is your safe starting place. The details are up to you... there is no correct or incorrect way to do this. It's your own subconscious... you can read a million books and learn a million different ways that your inner temple is 'supposed to work', but at the end of the day it's what YOUR internal landscape looks like that matters.

      It also depends on what you need as to what is 'necessary'. I just close my eyes and are in my inner temple... I ground and cleanse and do my aural hygiene there in my Grove and find it a strange concept to need to ground on the way in. But then that's what my inner temple is... if yours is more of an escape from reality and filled with egregores that you've created which distract you from the work, then your needs may be different to mine. Sometimes part of the process of growth is to recognise when we've outgrown something and need something else. If you're in a place now where you feel you don't need that escape, then perhaps you have outgrown Rotokia and it's not going to help you through your current phase in life. The answer to that can only come from you, though. External people can make suggestions, but at the end of the day it's your inner landscape and your spiritual journey... and finding or constructing what you need now is actually a part of the self-knowledge and growth process.

      Again, there is no correct or incorrect way to do this. You haven't confused the 'system', because there is no system (or really, there are a million systems lol). Where you start is up to you. Where your doors are is up to you. Where your temple is is up to you. Whether you deconstruct Rotokia and start fresh, stay with Rotokia, or move on but leave it there out of nostalgia is up to you. I know that creates difficulties for some people, because they feel the need to have a system or rules to make things structured... but getting caught up in the need for a 'system' can actually work against you. Some people jump from system to system, reading different books, starting courses but not finishing them, and generally jumping around in ways that are not giving them the chance to actually DO anything useful. My advice would be to not worry so much about how it SHOULD be, and let it BE. Pick one of your book systems and see it through to the end. Then the next time you read a book, instead of getting worried that this system isn't the same as the last one, adapt it. Authors write what works for THEM... it's not The Law to follow their images and systems exactly. Take the essence of what they are saying and see how it fits into your inner landscape. And if the book tells you to construct a door to the Temple of Night but when you open the door it's broad daylight and the sun is high in the sky... explore that, note it, see what you are learning and then try the Temple of Night next time.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Originally posted by Jembru View Post
      Oh I forgot to mention this point (I was replying in a hurry before work and see I made a few sloppy typos ^^). I didn't realise how widespread all these ideas were (maybe I AM a shamanist after all, just not by design!). I do actually subscribe to the 3-selves view of the soul and am familiar with the fetch and its role. This was something I incorporated into my practices when I was exploring the Anderson Feary family of traditions. I've never come across the theory that THIS could be my shadow self, but I don't feel comfortable with the idea. I always considered it as my 'younger-self'.. more animalistic in ways, but also a blank slate, spiritually 'pure' as I was at birth.. and aware of the things I knew at that time, before my journey here progressed and defined my world-view. So I can kinda see how sometimes the fetch could seem alien to me, but on the whole I feel it is a positive part of my soul and an important go-between bringing images and messages from my deeper self.

      I'm slowly making my way through some of your posts in the shamanism sub-forums. There is so much information I'm still to discover, and your posts are a great place to start and decide where I need to research further..
      Personally, I don't subscribe to that idea either, but it's out there. Those are the two main definitions of the 'shadow self' that I've seen (with a few weird and wonderful hypothesis in between). Personally, I subscribe to the shadow self as the suppressed and undesirable parts of the Ego, but not necessarily the 'evil mirror twin opposite' idea.

      In modern Northern faiths, the fetch (fylgia in Old Norse) generally takes one of three shapes... either an animal (which mine is), a contra-gendered human/oid that may be considered the soul twin or soul spouse, or a glowing crescent shaped 'thing'. Usually it's a reflection of the self that can act and think independently, and which can act as aide, messenger or weapon.

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        #18
        Re: Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

        Originally posted by nbdy View Post
        This is an interesting thread. It is my intention to reread it and mull it over, and perhaps I will have questions or a positive contribution to make. It might take a while.
        Me too! The thread is way out of my depth (always was). It's great to see people being so honest about what I would consider to be a really personal thing. I was just expecting really surface replies.

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          #19
          Re: Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

          Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
          Me too! The thread is way out of my depth (always was). It's great to see people being so honest about what I would consider to be a really personal thing. I was just expecting really surface replies.
          I'm glad you don't mind the direction the thread has taken. As I've said, it's rare for me to be so open about my experiences, but I just really needed to share this time. It felt significant. I was actually going to put it in the 'dreams' thread, but then found this one and felt it was better here. I never expected to learn so much. This conversation as really set things in motion for me in a big way! That said, it may be time to take this to a new thread in the Shamanism sub-forum. We really need an 'ask a shamanist' thread. Any volunteers?

          Oh and Rae'ya: I'm not ignoring your direct questions, I'm just waiting until I have the time and space to get my head straight and write a full response. I will be back! Maybe in a new thread though.
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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            #20
            Re: Descriptions and experiences in Otherworlds/The spiritual plane

            The more the merrier

            And wherever... whenever... I'll find a shamanism post and spam it up with my opinions and experiences. You know me...

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