Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Torture: The good news is...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Torture: The good news is...

    There's a lot of bad stuff in the news these days, but there is a bit of good news, and it regards my beloved country and its shameful use of torture.

    President Obama is responding to the U.N. regarding the U.S. use of torture on captives, making official changes in policy, and being called out on the carpet for the sneaky bits that have been subtly hidden in military manuals:

    U.S. Tells U.N. Panel of Steps to Revise Interrogation Policy
    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.


    #2
    Re: Torture: The good news is...

    Tell me where the bomb is

    Nope.

    Ok. I guess I'll just wait for it to blow up and kill millions.


    (knits booties)

    I'm sorry/not sorry. Torture has a place.
    Satan is my spirit animal

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Torture: The good news is...

      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
      I'm sorry/not sorry. Torture has a place.
      Except, you know, it's totally unreliable and thus morally unjustifiable.
      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Torture: The good news is...

        Originally posted by Denarius View Post
        Except, you know, it's totally unreliable and thus morally unjustifiable.
        Your link doesn't work.

        I think I'll save my comment till after I've seen it since I'm sort of on the fence here and I want to see if you have data I'm unaware of.
        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


        Comment


          #5
          Re: Torture: The good news is...

          The link worked for me. I agree torturing a guy over and over first shot out isn't going to work. Like I said, it has a place. I think it should be used during right times.
          Satan is my spirit animal

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Torture: The good news is...

            WTF, it works now. 5 minutes ago, I was getting file not found. I'll comment in a moment.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Alright, not something completely new. So here's my position

            1) Torture as a justice matter (i.e. to gain a confession) is always wrong, end of discussion. Anyone found doing it should gain a hefty prison sentence.

            2) Torture to acquire information that cannot be effectively and independently verified cannot be confirmed to be working and therefore is an unacceptable practice. Prison sentences to any who use it.

            3) Torture is in general a reprehensible line to cross potentially damaging to the psyche of the torturer as well as certainly damaging to the psyche of the tortured. It should not be used except by highly skilled and stringently supervised interrogators after all other options fail.

            Now that the three basics are out of the way. Here's the problem. Torture conducted by amateurs isn't useful. To make someone a professional, there's a degree of training and hopefully experience necessary. If torture is always the last resort then either 1) we're gonna be distinctly low on people who have the knowledge to use it effectively therefore it will normally be unreliable or our 2) intelligence communities are consistently dropping the ball.

            TL,DR. In theory, there are conditions where I might approve of torture to gain information. In practice, for an intelligence community to have the institutional knowledge to use torture quickly and reliably in any of the conditions where I might approve of its use, they would need to have on hand individuals who practiced their art under conditions that I probably would not approve of it. We have other methods of getting information that we have the institutional knowledge to use effectively. I'm not willing to pay the price to make torture an effective tool in our arsenal, let it die while we improve the methods that we already use effectively.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


            Comment


              #7
              Re: Torture: The good news is...

              Lesbereal. Those 'other methods'? You know those are torture. Just trussed up pretty. Maybe a needle of truth serum here. Maybe a 'your mother's body is in a ditch being eaten by dogs' here. Maybe a Let's pee on your religious bible tossed in. Maybe a 'rotting' soup for brunch.

              It's like how we don't like the death penalty because the chopping of the head was inhuman.
              So we decided to do some burning at the steak.
              But that was inhuman.
              Let's hang em.
              Nope. Inhuman.
              Oh shot to the head by many marksmen.
              You know..inhuman.
              Electrocution!
              noooope.
              hm....gas!
              oh hell nope.
              Needle!
              Meh. You are getting close.
              Oh a drug that puts them to 'sleep' before you kill them!
              BINGO!


              (tiny print: drug makes you look dead to those killing you but you are completely aware of what's going on. But it looks humane so it's a go)

              That's how that other method thing really works.

              *takes off tinfoil beret
              Satan is my spirit animal

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Torture: The good news is...

                Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                Lesbereal. Those 'other methods'? You know those are torture. Just trussed up pretty. Maybe a needle of truth serum here. Maybe a 'your mother's body is in a ditch being eaten by dogs' here. Maybe a Let's pee on your religious bible tossed in. Maybe a 'rotting' soup for brunch.


                Is the army field manual on interrogation techniques that was current as of 1992. Chapter 3 regards the actual approach methods. Strangely even the minority of approach methods based within the overall emotional approach method that involved creating fear come complete with some stringent prohibitions. I will be more than happy to view any credible source you're willing and able to provide on government methods of interrogation since this version is rather old and I'm not gonna look for a new one tonight.
                life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Torture: The good news is...

                  Ok I did do some light reading on this. But I won't be able to read the whole thing.
                  1 because honestly if you think the military does ONLY what's outlined in that pdf...well. No. I won't ever buy that.
                  2. I did get into the first part. The objective. Each interrogation must be done for a definitive purpose.
                  Could be specific. Or you know...general. Whatevs I guess. Lol. Riiiiiiiight.


                  I'm not the right person to argue human rights or military laws. Why? Because I realize we aren't suppose to go for torture. We aren't supposed to support it or want it. We are supposed to hate it and deter it. But I'm an honest gal. My reason is simple. Some scum who wants to blow up some said innocent population probably has done a lot of inhuman violations of said human laws. So eff him or her. Get the info out of them the most effective way proven. But if that doesn't work? Well you have to have that back up of torture. I mean it's there. We can't be fighting wars of 2014 like it was a war of 1914 and having 'rules' of proper engagement.

                  Don't go to a gun fight with a sword etc etc.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Torture: The good news is...

                    We've already confirmed that methods outside the manual are used. Several of them have also had both their legality and their efficiency challenged. I posted the manual because you decided to boil all interrogation methods outside direct questioning (which counter-intuitively actually works a lot of times) down to torture without presenting a source to support such a claim. The actual book on the subject has a wide variety of options, very few of which actually involve going out of one's way to scare the subject. Hell, sometimes the goal is actually to calm the subject down because they're too scared to be useful.
                    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Torture: The good news is...

                      Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                      We've already confirmed that methods outside the manual are used. Several of them have also had both their legality and their efficiency challenged. I posted the manual because you decided to boil all interrogation methods outside direct questioning (which counter-intuitively actually works a lot of times) down to torture without presenting a source to support such a claim. The actual book on the subject has a wide variety of options, very few of which actually involve going out of one's way to scare the subject. Hell, sometimes the goal is actually to calm the subject down because they're too scared to be useful.
                      I did indeed do some more reading. You are right there are all sorts of other techniques. I even browsed through the Geneva Convention just to get a better glimpse of things. So there's a list of things to do other than torture. I agree. And I still think torture still has a place in interrogation.

                      And I'm willing to bet that the techniques actually being used are landing somewhere between your pdf guidelines and the side of actual practice of torture.

                      You want other techniques to be used. You are right. They are being used. But I'm pretty sure they are not all 'per guidelines'. I'm just being practical is all. And now I have to go to bed!
                      Satan is my spirit animal

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Torture: The good news is...

                        The real problem is WE(As in the country of the United States of America) signed accords banning certain acts in a war. Now in the modern world some "Leaders" have been tried in the world court for committing acts banned under these agreements. If you disagree,or agree that torture is needed,it does NOT make these agreements we signed onto go away.

                        Some have gone as far as to request that G. W, Bush be tried in the world court for war crimes...Geneva is not something you go along with until you decide you don't. In or out,that is how it works.
                        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                        sigpic

                        my new page here,let me know what you think.


                        nothing but the shadow of what was

                        witchvox
                        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Torture: The good news is...

                          I'll be honest. I might be swayed either way depending upon the situation. I'm not holding firm to my opinion on this. Things are very gray and I can't possibly decide on a whim where the line is. I'm guessing it's probably like that in the real world with this as well.
                          Satan is my spirit animal

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Torture: The good news is...

                            I had an interesting discussion with a Army interrogator one day who basically said what was going on in the Middle East in regards to interrogation was like the Wild West. Anything goes. Of course this was 5 or 6 years ago and I was but a lowly Private.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Torture: The good news is...

                              Maybe they should change the Eighth Amendment from: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," to: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted, unless some dude in the CIA who is not answerable for his actions in an American, or any other, court of law decides it would be a good idea."
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X