Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is this ethical?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Is this ethical?

    To make a very long story short, I've become medically disabled over the last two years and had to move back home.

    I'm grateful for everything my mom has done for me, but she's an alcoholic. She nearly lost her career for being drunk during work hours, and she's coming close to losing it. I know it's the alcohol talking when she's drunk and being cruel to me, but I've been hearing the alcohol talk far too much lately.

    Would doing spellwork to help her stop drinking be unethical, because it's interfering with her life? She constantly tries to stop, but like many addicts, keeps relapsing.
    Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

    Honorary Nord.

    Habbalah Vlogs

    #2
    Re: Is this ethical?

    You may or may not get various responses... but my quick opinion is that if your Mother is trying to stop drinking, maybe she just needs a little magical encouragement to help her get there. I don't think it's unethical unless she expressly says she does not want that kind of help.
    �Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted. And experience is often the most valuable thing you have to offer.�
    ― Randy Pausch, The Last Lecture
    Sneak Attack
    Avatar picture by the wonderful and talented TJSGrimm.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Is this ethical?

      Ethics are really a grey subject, to be honest. People do spell work for all sorts of things that would be considered "interfering", from aiding in legal issues to helping a friend deal with the loss of a loved one, and no one bats an eye at whether it is good or not.

      If you feel that it's necessary, go for it. Sometimes people need a bit of a push in the right direction, and sometimes they need a shove to get there. If it feels right, do it.

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Is this ethical?

        I'm philosophically a moral subjectivist. Meaning that I do not believe that there is an objective code of conduct that applies to all people. I have my morality/ethical code, you have yours, that guy over there has his, etc. So, my opinion on the ethics of whatever you're doing are, by my own admission and advice, to be taken with a grain of salt.

        I don't see any problem with it. Any magic is done to induce some sort of outward effect that cannot be obtained through mundane means; "interference" is rather the point. The idea that it should be avoided if it does interfere with someone's life without their knowledge is a relatively recent phenomenon.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Is this ethical?

          I guess I echo what people have already said. I don't think humans are as ungarded against spells as we like to think. My belief, based almost entirely on conjecture (and the need to reassure myself of why spells aimed at others have so royally failed in the past) is that everyone has a higher self capable of filtering out things that are unhelpful to a person at least on some level. While a lot of unwelcome negativity does appear get through this filter (unless it is our conscious minds creating it from within), I always felt it is pretty good at filtering out spells and curses. Although while obviously not the only possible reason, the fact that curses work better when the person knows they've been cursed, I think the conscious mind can override this process, letting in bad influences and sometimes preventing positive influences from affecting them (again, unless just being told a spell was cast upon us is enough for us to create the affects ourselves, bypassing the need for any kind of 'energy' to permeate our psychic protection.. which certainly would explain those times I've told someone I'd cast for them, completely forgotten, then been thanked wholeheartedly for what turned out to be such a successful working for them!)

          Long story short. I've always felt that it's fine to send healing to others, which is what you're essentially doing. If it isn't meant to be, chances are it simply won't affect them.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Oh and I'd also like to add that whether or not you are able to affect your mum's healing process, you certainly DO have every right to protect yourself magically from the affects of her behaviour.
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Is this ethical?

            I think you're approaching it from the wrong direction. A working which is designed to just stop her from drinking is inherently impinging on her free will to a degree, which is, at the least, a very sticky area ethically. Speaking both in magical and addiction treatment terms, it's also not very likely to succeed, imo.

            You'd be far better off doing it the other way around, perform a working which will allow her to see, and strengthen her resolve to overcome, whatever issues are driving her to drink in the first place.

            Two other thoughts. Firstly, have you approached her to try to help her understand the effect her behavior is having on herself and others and to offer your support as a family member? Even if you have, keep doing so, don't push and don't try to guilt her, but just make your presence and support known. It makes a huge difference for someone suffering an addiction to have that kind of family support.

            Secondly, has she had any contact with treatment services? With all addictions, but especially with alcohol because of it's social acceptance, it can be hard for people to make the first step and admit that they have a serious problem. She doesn't have to go full out and hit up 12 step meetings 3 times a week or go to rehab (in fact that might be counter-productive, I know I found that whole approach incredibly unappealing), but even just something as simple as a talk with her doctor, or receiving therapy to help get to the bottom of her psychological drive to drink, could help a lot, and could be a major step in helping her realize the extent of her problem.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Is this ethical?

              Originally posted by Aeran View Post
              Two other thoughts. Firstly, have you approached her to try to help her understand the effect her behavior is having on herself and others and to offer your support as a family member? Even if you have, keep doing so, don't push and don't try to guilt her, but just make your presence and support known. It makes a huge difference for someone suffering an addiction to have that kind of family support.

              Secondly, has she had any contact with treatment services? With all addictions, but especially with alcohol because of it's social acceptance, it can be hard for people to make the first step and admit that they have a serious problem. She doesn't have to go full out and hit up 12 step meetings 3 times a week or go to rehab (in fact that might be counter-productive, I know I found that whole approach incredibly unappealing), but even just something as simple as a talk with her doctor, or receiving therapy to help get to the bottom of her psychological drive to drink, could help a lot, and could be a major step in helping her realize the extent of her problem.
              To the first, yes, I have talked to her many times about her drinking and its effect on her life and career, as well as my life. She has lessened her drinking lately (to once a week rather than almost every day), and I've tried to be supportive in her progress. This has been going on for some time, though, and it's emotionally draining me. I feel selfish for saying that, but I have an undiagnosed and so far untreatable health condition that leaves me in constant pain (it doesn't respond to pain killers), so my physical strength and emotional fortitude aren't as strong as they used to be.

              She goes to AA. She was going to counseling (she just got a new job and the insurance hasn't kicked in yet), and promises to go again. She's tried Anabuse, but it unfortunately didn't work on her. I'm hoping there's an analog of it that she can try once the insurance is in effect.
              Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

              Honorary Nord.

              Habbalah Vlogs

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Is this ethical?

                I agree with pretty much everyone else; most people wouldn't object to being healed, even if they don't know about it. Also, if they know you're doing it, there's a chance that their disbelief and negative thoughts might interfere if they don't believe it will work. If you're still concerned about the ethics of it, you could always ask what/who ever your divinity might be for advice. Or sometimes I will flip a quarter for a yes/no question like this while I concentrate on the question. Or if I want a more detailed answer, there's the tarot or the runes. But in my opinion, healing spells generally are, unless you know the person would object, a positive thing to do.

                I wish you good luck and I hope things get better for you soon!!!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Is this ethical?

                  Originally posted by SleepingCompass View Post
                  I agree with pretty much everyone else; most people wouldn't object to being healed, even if they don't know about it. Also, if they know you're doing it, there's a chance that their disbelief and negative thoughts might interfere if they don't believe it will work. If you're still concerned about the ethics of it, you could always ask what/who ever your divinity might be for advice. Or sometimes I will flip a quarter for a yes/no question like this while I concentrate on the question. Or if I want a more detailed answer, there's the tarot or the runes. But in my opinion, healing spells generally are, unless you know the person would object, a positive thing to do.

                  I wish you good luck and I hope things get better for you soon!!!
                  Thank you very much. I hope they do too.
                  Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                  Honorary Nord.

                  Habbalah Vlogs

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Is this ethical?

                    Even if she weren't getting help, which I think is a very big help and step in the right direction, I don't think there's anything wrong with what you want to do. You love your mother and want to see her well. I say go for it.
                    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Is this ethical?

                      Originally posted by habbalah View Post
                      To the first, yes, I have talked to her many times about her drinking and its effect on her life and career, as well as my life. She has lessened her drinking lately (to once a week rather than almost every day), and I've tried to be supportive in her progress. This has been going on for some time, though, and it's emotionally draining me. I feel selfish for saying that, but I have an undiagnosed and so far untreatable health condition that leaves me in constant pain (it doesn't respond to pain killers), so my physical strength and emotional fortitude aren't as strong as they used to be.

                      She goes to AA. She was going to counseling (she just got a new job and the insurance hasn't kicked in yet), and promises to go again. She's tried Anabuse, but it unfortunately didn't work on her. I'm hoping there's an analog of it that she can try once the insurance is in effect.
                      It sounds like she's making progress then - massive progress, if she's cut down from daily drinking to weekly. That's definitely something to be happy about. Recovering from an addiction is always a process, but it sounds like she's on the right track.

                      Antabuse is generally held to be useless, in my understanding, as it does nothing to stop the craving to drink, only makes the addict sick when they do (the kind of thing which seems like a genius idea to a doctor in a lab, but which is obviously moronic to anyone with any experience with addicts and addiction). There are a lot of addiction medications intended to work like this (to somehow block the effect of the drug, or make new side effects) and none of them have ever been very successful because they do nothing to remove the actual craving, which tends to lead to the addict either trying to overcome the effects of the medication or to stop taking it (there are implants designed to stop opioids working, and plenty of stories of addicts using razorblades to cut the implants out of their flesh so they can go back to getting high - and even more addicts who simply swap to drinking a bottle of vodka a day, a far more destructive habit).

                      Have you guys looked into Baclofen? It's still being trialed for alcoholism and is rather controversial, but there are numerous accounts of it providing partial or complete relief from alcohol cravings and there are doctors out there who are willing to prescribe it off label to alcoholics (it's original use is as a muscle relaxant). Certainly worth investigating.

                      I'd like to re-iterate my first point though, I feel strongly that any magical working should be supportive and not restrictive in nature. Putting aside the free will problem, trying to restrict addicts from using doesn't work and never has, and bringing magic into the equation isn't likely to change that.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Is this ethical?

                        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
                        It sounds like she's making progress then - massive progress, if she's cut down from daily drinking to weekly. That's definitely something to be happy about. Recovering from an addiction is always a process, but it sounds like she's on the right track.

                        Antabuse is generally held to be useless, in my understanding, as it does nothing to stop the craving to drink, only makes the addict sick when they do (the kind of thing which seems like a genius idea to a doctor in a lab, but which is obviously moronic to anyone with any experience with addicts and addiction). There are a lot of addiction medications intended to work like this (to somehow block the effect of the drug, or make new side effects) and none of them have ever been very successful because they do nothing to remove the actual craving, which tends to lead to the addict either trying to overcome the effects of the medication or to stop taking it (there are implants designed to stop opioids working, and plenty of stories of addicts using razorblades to cut the implants out of their flesh so they can go back to getting high - and even more addicts who simply swap to drinking a bottle of vodka a day, a far more destructive habit).

                        Have you guys looked into Baclofen? It's still being trialed for alcoholism and is rather controversial, but there are numerous accounts of it providing partial or complete relief from alcohol cravings and there are doctors out there who are willing to prescribe it off label to alcoholics (it's original use is as a muscle relaxant). Certainly worth investigating.

                        I'd like to re-iterate my first point though, I feel strongly that any magical working should be supportive and not restrictive in nature. Putting aside the free will problem, trying to restrict addicts from using doesn't work and never has, and bringing magic into the equation isn't likely to change that.
                        She is making progress, you're right. My biggest worry right now stems from the fact that I plan to move out again soon, and I'm afraid she'll relapse more without me here.

                        I've never heard of Baclofen. I'll talk to her about it.

                        No, you're right. I don't think that trying to do a spell to make her stop drinking would either work or be ethical. I was thinking more along the lines of one that would help her deal with her craving for alcohol, for example.
                        Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                        Honorary Nord.

                        Habbalah Vlogs

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Is this ethical?

                          She is making progress, you're right. My biggest worry right now stems from the fact that I plan to move out again soon, and I'm afraid she'll relapse more without me here.

                          I've never heard of Baclofen. I'll talk to her about it.

                          No, you're right. I don't think that trying to do a spell to make her stop drinking would either work or be ethical. I was thinking more along the lines of one that would help her deal with her craving for alcohol, for example.
                          That would probably be best, along with something to help her see the underlying cause(s) of her addiction and to address those issues, as well as make the proper behavioral changes.

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X