Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

When bad things happen

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #46
    Re: When bad things happen

    Originally posted by Aeran View Post
    As I said to Medusa, the post you're responding to was referring to purely mundane, material punishment in a social/familial context, nothing metaphysical beyond my short aside about the influences on/influence of Hermetic philosophy throughout history, which is something I threw in because she mentioned Christianity. Didn't mean to give the impression that the rest of the post was referring to anything metaphysical/spiritual or to be taken at anything other than face value.
    I get that (and of course I hadn't seen your reply while I was typing all of that! ^^). I was the one who drew the comparison with punishing a child and my last reply was STILL talking about punishing children and animals. In both cases, I'm drawing a comparison with punishment as a means to spiritual growth, so as far as I'm concerned there's no distinction, and I STILL feel that there are better ways of helping others to become better people whether on a mundane or spiritual level. So whether your post was taken as being about humans or gods, the meaning is surely still the same?

    Or have I missed something?
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

    Comment


      #47
      Re: When bad things happen

      Originally posted by Aeran View Post
      I think you're confusing my spiritual views on the meaning of suffering throughout a person's life with my personal views on the place of negative reinforcement (ie punishment/disciplining) in raising children. My bad I guess, I should have made it clearer when I was referring to which, but I thought the spiritual side of the discussion was over.

      For the record, post #26 (on page 3, unless you have a different posts/page count) and everything after it (including the most recent post you're responding to) are referring to my opinions on the real world and practical interpersonal behavior, not metaphysics or spirituality.
      Ahh. Yup yup. My bad.
      Satan is my spirit animal

      Comment


        #48
        Re: When bad things happen

        Originally posted by Aeran View Post
        I get all that, I was actually more curious about what your viewpoints on those worldviews/practices were personally and how you put it all together into a coherent worldview/belief system/"spiritual" practice. If you'd care to explain, that is, if not, I understand.
        Sure, but this is the wrong place - ask in the Buddhism thread, or the Ask an Alchemist thread where it won't be going off topic.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
        I've never read the story myself, but I have heard of it, from South Park, and my feelings are pretty much the same as Kyle's. I can't find comfort in the concept that deity would harm their devotees for the sake of proving a point....


        ...That said, my reaction to the fact that the Truth is beyond my understanding doesn't lead me to the conclusion that all I can do is make the best of the world as I experience it. Having experienced my life without deity I know that I'm one of those people who get real benefit from having faith. That said, I may well feel differently about Atheism if I'd chosen to explore it, because a belief there is no god is still a belief....
        My feelings about the Job story are much the same as yours.

        For many atheists, the wonder and amazement of the universe is where they draw their spiritual strength.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


          #49
          Re: When bad things happen

          When I dropped by a couple of days ago I did not have the time to fully read this thread, much less respond in any way. It was a pleasure reading the thoughts shared here. I guess I'd say that we never "find" meaning, we create it, so it is not what happens so much as how we interpret it. Then there are issues of scale and context.

          I was reminded of a story: A boy is given a horse for his 14th birthday and the townspeople say, "What good fortune!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see." Then he breaks his leg in a riding mishap and the townspeople say, "What bad luck!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see." Then the warlord came to town to take all the able bodied young men, leaving this one because of his broken leg, and the townspeople say, "What good fortune!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see."

          "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

          Comment


            #50
            Re: When bad things happen

            Originally posted by nbdy View Post
            I was reminded of a story: A boy is given a horse for his 14th birthday and the townspeople say, "What good fortune!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see." Then he breaks his leg in a riding mishap and the townspeople say, "What bad luck!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see." Then the warlord came to town to take all the able bodied young men, leaving this one because of his broken leg, and the townspeople say, "What good fortune!" To which the zen master replies, "We shall see."
            You gotta love a Zen master - they have such a way of putting things.

            Nice story!
            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

            Comment


              #51
              Re: When bad things happen

              I like this thread, so I'm necro-ing it for no real reason.

              C'mon peeps, commentary is welcome!
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
              sigpic

              Comment


                #52
                Re: When bad things happen

                Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                So, as I pondered this I wondered how folks here perceive hardship. Do you see it as part of some larger plan for your life, a consequence of your own actions, just random doodoo occurring, enemy action? Does it depend on the circumstances of the hardship?
                Hoggle: Them's my rightful property. It's not fair.
                Sarah: No, it isn't. But that's the way it is.


                I guess I'm part of the 'random doodoo occurring' camp; although I believe in reincarnation, after a fashion, but I don't know about karma... something Medusa said struck me as a good point:

                Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                How do you learn a lesson when you have no memory?
                If bad stuff happening was meant as a karmic punishment or lesson, it doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose if we can't remember. Without the memory, you're not really the same person as you were before, so it's more like punishing an innocent who just happens to be made out of the same spirit stuff as the person who originally did something deserving of a lesson... so I don't think the whole karma thing completely works for me...

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                I have found that when I make an effort to make good, responsible decisions and to take beneficial (even generous) and responsive action, treat others with compassion and tactful honesty, and go about your day with a mostly positive and cheerful outlook, the world tends to be kind (not always, but mostly).
                I used to consider karma as a possible solution to the question of 'why bad things happen' because, like Thalassa said above, I've noticed this phenomenon as well; where you do good things and good things seem to happen. So if the positive side of karma seems to be true, shouldn't the negative side as well? And when I'm in a dark place and do dark stuff, it does seems to have a similar effect as well... or at least, my good luck seems to vanish.

                The reason why I now think this phenomenon isn't karma precisely, but still works the way it does is that when you're doing good stuff, and have a positive attitude, you're more naturally open to the world at large, and therefore also to the Divine, or Creative Force of the Universe, or what have you, and Divinity is more able to do good stuff for you. When you're angry and negative, you're essentially closing yourself off from the world and therefore also from Divinity, so they can't intervene on your behalf as easily when they can't connect with you because you've closed yourself off.

                I have this one friend that who is just amazing; she lives a super full life with tons of friends and acquaintances and she has accomplished so much (she's about to receive a doctorate in marine biology), and I've never known her to have been mean or negative in the slightest; she's always super positive despite the obstacles she has faced and her health issues. She is also super nice and kind and helpful to everyone she meets. When I'm around her, I swear I can feel the good energy just surrounding her, and besides her health issues, she seems to have incredibly good luck. If she needs a ride, or needs a certain book or anything at all, it seems to just pop up for her. When ever we play board or card games, I know I'm probably going to loose, even if the game is based completely on chance, her luck is just that good.

                What Jembru said in the following also struck me as 'true':

                Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                For me, it really seems that the best answer is that the gods are simply not as all-powerful as we'd like them to be. Yet that's no reason not to respect them. It doesn't mean they're completely powerless either. Some bad things happen because we simply made poor choices. If we're smart, we'll learn to change our patterns of behavour to avoid similar incidents happening in future (like the child not putting their hand in the fire a second time), sometimes our gods might intervene and divert us from greater harm by making us miss that train, fail that job interview, essentially smacking our hands before we touch the fire. Sometimes the 'bad things' are too big and too far outside of the control of the gods. I'm still not entirely happy with this answer, but I was so moved by the story of the Prince of Rabbits that I can't help but feel there's some truth in it.. that the gods haven't abandoned us.. they've tried to arm us with the ability to avoid danger and help ourselves, but ultimately the demands of nature, the complexities of population growth mean that human suffering can't be avoided.
                My friend has never done anything to deserve the health issues and obstacles she's had to face; I can't even believe that she would have done something in a previous life to deserve that bad stuff either (she is the most genuinely good person I've ever met). I think the Divine influences things to an extent, but somethings are just beyond their control as well.

                Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                Do you respond in various ways depending upon what is occurring or find that you basically pull out the same tool kit every time?
                I guess I do tend to 'pull out the same tool kit'... basically crying and huddling in a corner and/or avoidance tactics, but I'm working on growing and changing to something better, so hopefully the next time something bad happens, I'll be able to act in a more mature manner

                Comment


                  #53
                  Re: When bad things happen

                  I have a suck-it-up-and-deal-with-it attitude. Whether it happens for a reason or not is irrelevant, you can learn from it all the same.

                  I never understood the teachings from my childhood - that bad things happen to people who don't have strong enough faith and if you only pray hard enough, things will get better for you. The way I see it, you can get down on your knees and beg until you're blue in the face, it's not going to miraculously fix your problems. Sometimes you have to be your own savior. Life is going to throw you crap every so often, so you better accept it and adapt as best you can.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: When bad things happen

                    Originally posted by Starless View Post
                    I have a suck-it-up-and-deal-with-it attitude. Whether it happens for a reason or not is irrelevant, you can learn from it all the same.

                    I never understood the teachings from my childhood - that bad things happen to people who don't have strong enough faith and if you only pray hard enough, things will get better for you.
                    Assuming that this was any of the various branches of Abrahamic religion, a lot of people missed the point something fierce. I don't care which holy book you go with or what section, the LoH frequently sends his servants headlong into trial and turbulation. He makes no promises of easy and comfortable living, only that the result of the endless aggravation he throws at people will be worth it in some form or fashion at some time and place. The whole "God won't put his true faithful through such and such a trial" is the same type of heretical hubris that nets people theology resembling the Left Behind series. A man who walked and spoke with Christ (taking Scripture at face value because my personal beliefs are outside my point) was also crucified upside down for his faith. I'm perplexed where people get the idea that faith is an auto-bypass to pain and anguish given such an example.

                    Ok, I'm done ranting about heresies. Everyone can return to their original programming.
                    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: When bad things happen

                      Coming late to this awesome discussion (what else is new?)

                      The Universe operates in certain ways, laws of physics (it's own, not limited to the one's we currently recognize). It's not random, things happen for a reason, a physical/energy reason. But there are SO many factors involved because what happens anywhere happens to everything in the Universe, there is no seperation.

                      Things that happen closer to home appear to have a great effect on us than things that happen far off, but I posit that may be appearance more than reality.

                      So, if I decide to act in a particular way, it is more likely to affect my immediate life. Likewise if the people in my community make certain choices, they will impact me more than the choices of people on the other side of the planet...until they don't.

                      Then thrown in weather, illness, emotions and all that good stuff and the stew is so nuanced and complex that it's hard to discern all the flavors that meld to make the whole.

                      I don't think there is any cosmic or spiritual component to the reason that life bite's sometimes. But often our cosmic or spiritual understandings help us deal with it. I think that is why humans created or developed with that aspect of our personality. Because we have to deal with it.

                      I deal with it by reminding myself it's not personal. It's the way of things, and I am integrated in this Universe that is pretty darn wonderful, cycling matter and energy the way that humans do, and subject to the experiences that humans are subject to. It may personally suck for me at any given time, but it doesn't in any way detract from the awesomeness that is the Universe.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X