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    Hard Polytheist Cosmology

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    Ereshkigal is one of the non-Norse deities I honor ...
    Disclaimer: No desire to hijack thread, just curious.

    Do you find any conflict between Hel and Ereshkigal as being the goddess rulers of the underworld? Or is Ereshkigal the form of the goddess ruler of the underworld that speaks to you more than Hel does? Though as a hard polytheist I suppose the idea of "forms" of a god(dess) isn't accepted. Which brings me to my second question: if all deities are individual real entities, how do we explain so many that rule over aspects of the universe, i.e. solar deities, deities of the underworld? Multiple fertility god/desses makes sense. A lot of this is new to me.
    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ


    #2
    Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

    Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
    Disclaimer: No desire to hijack thread, just curious.

    Do you find any conflict between Hel and Ereshkigal as being the goddess rulers of the underworld? Or is Ereshkigal the form of the goddess ruler of the underworld that speaks to you more than Hel does? Though as a hard polytheist I suppose the idea of "forms" of a god(dess) isn't accepted. Which brings me to my second question: if all deities are individual real entities, how do we explain so many that rule over aspects of the universe, i.e. solar deities, deities of the underworld? Multiple fertility god/desses makes sense. A lot of this is new to me.
    No conflict, because they are different Underworlds.

    I believe in multiple Otherworlds. So Irkalla is not the same Underworld as Helheim. The Nine Worlds are just one set of worlds within the Otherworlds... there are many, many others. I believe that the deities exist in the Otherworlds, NOT in Thisworld. Their influence on Thisworld is an interfacing that is dependent on their followers and degree of worship.

    I don't believe that Sunna literally drives the sun around Earth... but maybe she drives the solar chariot around the Nine Worlds... but not the lands of the Sidhe or Annwn or Olympus. because the Otherworlds are not Thisworld and the rules of physics are different. I also don't believe that thunderstorms are Thorr swinging Mjollnir around... but maybe he has that power in the Otherworlds. We honor Thorr during thunderstorms not because he literally created them (we have scientific knowledge that tells us otherwise), but because they are a symbol that gives us a direct line to him by lining up the energies and giving him a 'signal boost', so to speak. We can petition Thorr to increase the chances of a thunderstorm, because he has a little power here in Thisworld to effect some changes (just as we ourselves have some power to effect some changes)... but thunderstorms don't exist because of Thorr, or Zeus or any of the other sky gods who are attributed to thunderstorms. They just help line up the energies and boost the signal.

    Incidentally, Skuld was the one who sent me to Ereshkigal. I'm not 100% sure why, but I suspect it may have been teaching me some lessons about discernment (as that's most of what I learned in my time with Her, that and some Underworld logistics). Torey was also working with Nergal at the time (in his capacity as part of the Demonic pantheons), and we didn't realise until after I'd started working with Ereshkigal that they were married. I've not worked with Hela, and while I honor Ereshkigal I don't expect to end up in Irkalla when I die... I suspect I will end up in Helheim because that's my primary cultural context.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

      Wow, that is all fascinating. Thanks for spelling it out. I'd like to bounce some more off you, if you don't mind. A lot of what I'm writing is trying to suss it all out for myself. I never considered that they "ruled" in Otherworlds that may not intersect.

      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
      No conflict, because they are different Underworlds.

      I believe in multiple Otherworlds. So Irkalla is not the same Underworld as Helheim. The Nine Worlds are just one set of worlds within the Otherworlds... there are many, many others.
      I also believe there are other worlds besides the nine. Only nine worlds does not hold up to science, or to my view of the universe(s) and reality (to the extent we can understand it).

      I believe that the deities exist in the Otherworlds, NOT in Thisworld. Their influence on Thisworld is an interfacing that is dependent on their followers and degree of worship.
      Ah ha! As a South Asian Indian saying goes "Everyone sees God in their own way" (loosely translated from Hindi). So this is the reason I can call on Saraswati to help with my music, and Hanuman to help with strength and courage, as well as also calling on Bragi and Thorr for music and strength, respectively, though Thorr is the one I feel closest to. And this is the reason, if I understand correctly that people can work with multiple pantheons, without the gods and goddesses getting pissy and jealous... not that the ones I believe in do, anyway. I wonder if it's too much of a stretch to say that when we work with other pantheons we are spiritually entering their worlds, or inviting them into ours. For example, Bragi may not even know I am working with Saraswati, and vice versa. I do not believe they are omnipotent or omniscient.

      I don't believe that Sunna literally drives the sun around Earth... but maybe she drives the solar chariot around the Nine Worlds... but not the lands of the Sidhe or Annwn or Olympus. because the Otherworlds are not Thisworld and the rules of physics are different.
      OK, so maybe this is why I think of Surya more as the sun deity, perhaps because I was initially more familiar with him, not Helios or Sunna.

      I also don't believe that thunderstorms are Thorr swinging Mjollnir around... but maybe he has that power in the Otherworlds. We honor Thorr during thunderstorms not because he literally created them (we have scientific knowledge that tells us otherwise), but because they are a symbol that gives us a direct line to him by lining up the energies and giving him a 'signal boost', so to speak. We can petition Thorr to increase the chances of a thunderstorm, because he has a little power here in Thisworld to effect some changes (just as we ourselves have some power to effect some changes)... but thunderstorms don't exist because of Thorr, or Zeus or any of the other sky gods who are attributed to thunderstorms. They just help line up the energies and boost the signal.
      I've heard that once or twice before, but I can't remember where. This could be the reason why people whine that the gods don't answer their prayers... maybe the gods don't have the ability to grant all requests. Again, I do not believe they are omnipotent or omniscient. I call on Thorr for protection and to help keep me aware when driving (ever drive in NJ?) yet I still hit a deer the other night. My truck got a small ding in the bumper, but the poor deer got the worst of it. Now, I could curse Thorr out, as some people might, for "letting me down", but maybe he had no influence over that... I can't ask him to spoon-feed me.

      Incidentally, Skuld was the one who sent me to Ereshkigal. I'm not 100% sure why, but I suspect it may have been teaching me some lessons about discernment (as that's most of what I learned in my time with Her, that and some Underworld logistics). Torey was also working with Nergal at the time (in his capacity as part of the Demonic pantheons), and we didn't realise until after I'd started working with Ereshkigal that they were married. I've not worked with Hela, and while I honor Ereshkigal I don't expect to end up in Irkalla when I die... I suspect I will end up in Helheim because that's my primary cultural context.
      It's funny you say that about Skuld and Ereshkigal... I had the same experience with Saraswati. When I put her image near my music area, something that came out of nowhere as I recall, my guitar playing improved by leaps and bounds. At the same time I began to feel drawn to Krishna and closer to Hinduism. I chalked it up to Saraswati bringing me into the Hindu fold, and into a a spirituality I had not had in decades. But as time went on, I lost my connection with Krishna and Hindu practice... I never could get close to Rama, and only marginally closer to Ganesha... then Thorr grabbed me in a headlock. Yet I still feel a connection to Saraswati, Lakshmi, Hanuman, and to a lesser extent Shiva and Ganesha. Shiva represents the dynamics of the universe... constant creation and destruction... think of stars and planets coming and going.

      I understand what you're saying about how we know or suspect whose Underworld we will go to. Most definitely I prefer to go to Bilskirnir in Thrudheim, but possibly Helheim because like you, it is a cultural connection. I don't have a cultural connection to India, so I doubt I will go to Naraka, Yama's realm. I suspect that even being of Sicilian descent, I am ultimately of northern European/Norse/Norman/Germanic descent. We have the reddish-brownish-blondish hair, and some blue eyes to show for it. There is the cultural connection I feel to the Aesir.

      I hope I've understood everything you said, because it does make sense to me. Can you come for tea this afternoon around 3:00 so we can sit and chat!?

      Btw, if any of the (mortal) powers feel this is too off topic and and off track, I'm cool with moving it elsewhere.
      śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
      śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

      Comment


        #4
        Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

        Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
        Btw, if any of the (mortal) powers feel this is too off topic and and off track, I'm cool with moving it elsewhere.
        I suspect we are already a bit too far off track to stay here (PF tends to try to avoid detailed derails unless the original topic is dead or in need of being dead) so I can either PM you my comments or you can start a thread somewhere (or mods can move us out). I'm more than happy to have ideas bounced off me and I'll talk all day if you let me

        Comment


          #5
          Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
          I suspect we are already a bit too far off track to stay here (PF tends to try to avoid detailed derails unless the original topic is dead or in need of being dead) so I can either PM you my comments or you can start a thread somewhere (or mods can move us out). I'm more than happy to have ideas bounced off me and I'll talk all day if you let me
          I can move things in a little while. Detailed manipulation of threads is something I'd prefer to do on my laptop instead of my phone.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment


            #6
            Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            I never considered that they "ruled" in Otherworlds that may not intersect.
            I think this is largely a symptom of my shamanist practices, because it's something that you don't see much in neo-paganism but is fairly standard in classic shamanism (as opposed to core shamanism, but that's a whole other topic). When you do work within external Otherworlds, it becomes fairly clear that there is more than one. You don't head on down to the Underworld and find fifty Death deities hanging around with all the dead folks... you learn that there are fifty Lands of the Deads (hypothetical number, by the way... I have no idea how many there actually are).

            Bringing that back to the Nine Worlds... where did the Alfar come from? Or the Vanir? We only have explanations for the creation of Buri (and from him the Aesir), the frost thursar, the dvergar and Ask and Embla. The others had to come from somewhere, and my suspicion is that they were migrants of some sort.

            The UPG (and peer corroborated PCPG) of a number of shamanists tells us that there is some cross over and traveling points between worlds within the Otherworlds. I haven't used any myself, but it makes sense that just as there are cross over points between the Otherworlds and Thisworld, that they also exist between different Otherworlds.

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            I also believe there are other worlds besides the nine. Only nine worlds does not hold up to science, or to my view of the universe(s) and reality (to the extent we can understand it).
            Related to this idea, I don't think that Midgardhr is Thisworld. That idea is not popular amongst Northern based shamanists, because it doesn't match up with what we tend to experience in the Otherworlds. Some think that Midgardhr is physically this world, some think it is the astral plane of this world, but my experience is that it's a separate land. I don't experience Thisworld as part of the Nine Worlds.

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            Ah ha! As a South Asian Indian saying goes "Everyone sees God in their own way" (loosely translated from Hindi). So this is the reason I can call on Saraswati to help with my music, and Hanuman to help with strength and courage, as well as also calling on Bragi and Thorr for music and strength, respectively, though Thorr is the one I feel closest to. And this is the reason, if I understand correctly that people can work with multiple pantheons, without the gods and goddesses getting pissy and jealous... not that the ones I believe in do, anyway. I wonder if it's too much of a stretch to say that when we work with other pantheons we are spiritually entering their worlds, or inviting them into ours. For example, Bragi may not even know I am working with Saraswati, and vice versa. I do not believe they are omnipotent or omniscient.
            I don't believe they are omnipotent or omniscient either. Whether or not they communicate with each other depends on the deity. I've certainly experienced something of an inter-pantheon networking, but I don't really think that it would be a standard, widespread practice. I also think that some deities just don't mind you working with others outside of their pantheon, or being asked to work with those others. Some do, some don't. Some would rather work with someone outside their pantheon than certain deities inside it... I think that inter-deity relationships are complex. Mythology makes it clear to us that they aren't all buddy-buddy with each other. They have their own politics, alliances and preferences.

            Whether or not they are aware of your other dealings... I think that probably depends on the deity and how close an eye they are keeping on you. Just because you have an altar in your house and work closely with them doesn't necessarily mean that they are watching your every move. Personally, I think they have better things to be doing!

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            OK, so maybe this is why I think of Surya more as the sun deity, perhaps because I was initially more familiar with him, not Helios or Sunna.
            This is where we come down to WHY people feel the need to populate their world with deities for everything. I don't honor a sun god, to be perfectly honest. I honor very few deities on a regular basis. Maybe that makes me a bad polytheist, but I don't necessarily think that we have to have a deity for everything around us. I think that the sun is a symbol that can be used to connect with the energy of a solar deity... but just because it's there doesn't mean that it has to have a deity attached to it. Not for me, anyway. And I'm just using this as an example because we're already running with it, rather than this being specifically about the sun.

            I also work with landvaettir, so I'm perhaps in the habit of looking to Thisworld spirits for physical things rather than outsourcing to the Otherworlds, if that makes sense. To me, the ocean has it's own spirit, which resides here in Thisworld (or it's astral plane) so when I think of the ocean I don't think about oceanic deities... I think of the local ocean spirit. I use the ocean as a conduit to help connect with the Nine Undines, but the ocean itself is it's own entity. Does that make sense?

            But yes, I do think that it's both possible and 'ok' to populate your personal worldview with deities from different pantheons. But I'm also cautious of ensuring that you are doing it respectfully and not engaging in disrespectful cultural appropriation. We all culturally appropriate... in mundane life as well as spiritual... it's a part of being a culturally aware world... but there are respectful ways to do it, disrespectful ways, and damaging ways. Mixing pantheons and worldviews is a delicate balance... I dislike superficial cherry pickers, but I do think that it's possible to do it respectfully.

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            I've heard that once or twice before, but I can't remember where. This could be the reason why people whine that the gods don't answer their prayers... maybe the gods don't have the ability to grant all requests. Again, I do not believe they are omnipotent or omniscient. I call on Thorr for protection and to help keep me aware when driving (ever drive in NJ?) yet I still hit a deer the other night. My truck got a small ding in the bumper, but the poor deer got the worst of it. Now, I could curse Thorr out, as some people might, for "letting me down", but maybe he had no influence over that... I can't ask him to spoon-feed me.
            I absolutely agree. There's also another concept that I believe in that fits nicely in here. I tend to borrow the language that Raven Kaldera uses for this... The Divine Answering Machine. It's a nifty way to explain the concept and it's the best term I've heard for it. I don't think that all the gods give everyone direct personal attention... they're too busy for that. I think that there is a certain amount of automatic response that is a sort of first line contact... The Divine Answering Machine. It's capable of throwing a little energy your way, repeating certain stock responses and creating enough 'presence' to get a lot of the tasks that we ask them for done. It's the deity, it's just... a small auto-pilot part of their awareness that doesn't require any actual effort on their part. I think the Divine Answering Machine is what most of us get from deities until we have proven our dedication and loyalty.

            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
            I understand what you're saying about how we know or suspect whose Underworld we will go to. Most definitely I prefer to go to Bilskirnir in Thrudheim, but possibly Helheim because like you, it is a cultural connection. I don't have a cultural connection to India, so I doubt I will go to Naraka, Yama's realm. I suspect that even being of Sicilian descent, I am ultimately of northern European/Norse/Norman/Germanic descent. We have the reddish-brownish-blondish hair, and some blue eyes to show for it. There is the cultural connection I feel to the Aesir.
            Unfortunately, Bilskirnir is only open as an option if Thorr wants to keep you around as a dedicant after you die. This is one of the modern Heathen concepts that I don't believe in... yes, we have multiple after-death options in the Northern traditions, but the personal halls of our patron gods is not necessarily one of them. Not for most of us, anyway. I'm open to the possibility, but if it's an option then I think it's only an option for a select few. Hela is the keeper of the non-battle slain, and I hear she takes her job very seriously. [/QUOTE]

            Comment


              #7
              Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
              I suspect we are already a bit too far off track to stay here (PF tends to try to avoid detailed derails unless the original topic is dead or in need of being dead) so I can either PM you my comments or you can start a thread somewhere (or mods can move us out). I'm more than happy to have ideas bounced off me and I'll talk all day if you let me
              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
              I can move things in a little while. Detailed manipulation of threads is something I'd prefer to do on my laptop instead of my phone.
              This turned out great, thanks.
              śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
              śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

              Comment


                #8
                Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

                Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                I think this is largely a symptom of my shamanist practices, because it's something that you don't see much in neo-paganism but is fairly standard in classic shamanism (as opposed to core shamanism, but that's a whole other topic). When you do work within external Otherworlds, it becomes fairly clear that there is more than one. You don't head on down to the Underworld and find fifty Death deities hanging around with all the dead folks... you learn that there are fifty Lands of the Deads (hypothetical number, by the way... I have no idea how many there actually are).
                That is indeed quite different from classical neo-paganism. I'm not familiar with shamanism, so I don't have a frame of reference. In a way this is also alluded to, no, actually stated by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. He says that (and remember he is speaking as the Supreme God in the BG) he will make steady the faith of anyone who devotes themselves to another deity... he has no problem with that... but those devotees of the other deities/devas will go to the worlds of those devas. Those who worship him will go to his world. So the idea of other worlds ruled by other deities is not without precedent even in Hinduism.

                Bringing that back to the Nine Worlds... where did the Alfar come from? Or the Vanir? We only have explanations for the creation of Buri (and from him the Aesir), the frost thursar, the dvergar and Ask and Embla. The others had to come from somewhere, and my suspicion is that they were migrants of some sort.

                The UPG (and peer corroborated PCPG) of a number of shamanists tells us that there is some cross over and traveling points between worlds within the Otherworlds. I haven't used any myself, but it makes sense that just as there are cross over points between the Otherworlds and Thisworld, that they also exist between different Otherworlds.
                This may be not unlike some of the new theoretical physics theories, especially by Michio Kaku, that universes and realities intersect. Maybe going off into left field here, he once said that when you have a moment of "now where did that person come from that I almost bumped into?" and the "came out of nowhere and then disappeared" may be these worlds/universes intersecting or crossing paths. I have begun to believe this.

                Related to this idea, I don't think that Midgardhr is Thisworld. That idea is not popular amongst Northern based shamanists, because it doesn't match up with what we tend to experience in the Otherworlds. Some think that Midgardhr is physically this world, some think it is the astral plane of this world, but my experience is that it's a separate land. I don't experience Thisworld as part of the Nine Worlds.
                I honestly don't know what the general belief is among Heathens today about it. I suspect that most people take the scientific view, but the more spiritually or metaphysically inclined might take the astral planes approach.

                I don't believe they are omnipotent or omniscient either. Whether or not they communicate with each other depends on the deity. I've certainly experienced something of an inter-pantheon networking, but I don't really think that it would be a standard, widespread practice. I also think that some deities just don't mind you working with others outside of their pantheon, or being asked to work with those others. Some do, some don't. Some would rather work with someone outside their pantheon than certain deities inside it... I think that inter-deity relationships are complex. Mythology makes it clear to us that they aren't all buddy-buddy with each other. They have their own politics, alliances and preferences.
                I think of Athena and Ares, half-brother and half-sister in the same pantheon, both being gods of war, albeit different facets of war, and Athena simply cannot stand Ares. I also think it depends on the deity and the relationship one has with the deities. For example, I think Thor is laid-back and rowdy enough to say "hey sure, party with whoever, it's all good". It seems the most compatible deities, or rather of similar personalities, are among the Indo-European deities. Though I really know next to nothing of Mesopotamian, Egyptian or African deities. Except Yemaya who is a mother goddess. Which brings me to a thought... I'd bet any of the mother goddesses... Frigga, Lakshmi, Laima, Parvati/Durga (even in her fierce form as Kali), Yemaya would be cool with a devotee calling on any of them. After all, a child in need would run to anyone else's mother for help.

                Whether or not they are aware of your other dealings... I think that probably depends on the deity and how close an eye they are keeping on you. Just because you have an altar in your house and work closely with them doesn't necessarily mean that they are watching your every move. Personally, I think they have better things to be doing!
                I kind of think that too. Paramhansa Yogananda wrote that if we want something from God/dess we have to be forceful in asking... you really have to get their attention.

                This is where we come down to WHY people feel the need to populate their world with deities for everything. I don't honor a sun god, to be perfectly honest. I honor very few deities on a regular basis. Maybe that makes me a bad polytheist, but I don't necessarily think that we have to have a deity for everything around us. I think that the sun is a symbol that can be used to connect with the energy of a solar deity... but just because it's there doesn't mean that it has to have a deity attached to it. Not for me, anyway. And I'm just using this as an example because we're already running with it, rather than this being specifically about the sun.
                This is the sort of thing that drove me nuts when practicing Hinduism... feeling the need to worship every deity in every form he or she takes. And the Hindu deities are notorious for taking multiple appearances and forms. Did I really have to have a statue or picture of Krishna, Rama, Narasimha, Vishnu on the altar? No, because they are all Vishnu. I have an altar that is primarily for Thor. He is centered, I have a horn and bowl, a hammer, a few oak twigs, candle and incense holder. I have images of the other deities, some are on the altar (the ones I feel closest to), some are scattered around the house. I talk to some but not all of them.

                I also work with landvaettir, so I'm perhaps in the habit of looking to Thisworld spirits for physical things rather than outsourcing to the Otherworlds, if that makes sense. To me, the ocean has it's own spirit, which resides here in Thisworld (or it's astral plane) so when I think of the ocean I don't think about oceanic deities... I think of the local ocean spirit. I use the ocean as a conduit to help connect with the Nine Undines, but the ocean itself is it's own entity. Does that make sense?
                Yes, that does make sense. I think the landvaettir are as much a part of this world as we are... bound to it (for now).

                But yes, I do think that it's both possible and 'ok' to populate your personal worldview with deities from different pantheons. But I'm also cautious of ensuring that you are doing it respectfully and not engaging in disrespectful cultural appropriation. We all culturally appropriate... in mundane life as well as spiritual... it's a part of being a culturally aware world... but there are respectful ways to do it, disrespectful ways, and damaging ways. Mixing pantheons and worldviews is a delicate balance... I dislike superficial cherry pickers, but I do think that it's possible to do it respectfully.
                This is the reason I feel absolutely creepy about having Hindu, Buddhist (Green Tara, Chenrezig, Guan yin) and Norse deities in the same shrine. The Norse deities are rough and tumble, fond of food and drink... meat, ale, mead... but offering that in the same shrine with the Hindu deities is an affront to the Hindu deities. Meat and alcohol are absolutely contraindicated for their offerings. It's also proper to bow to them. As far as I've read, the Norse deities do not want anyone to bow or kneel or prostrate. I can imagine Thor saying "Get up!" You know, "when in Rome... " sort of thing. There was a discussion on another site asking whether it was OK for Wiccans to adopt Hindu deities into their practices. For example, Shiva and Shakti, or Vishnu and Lakshmi as God and Goddess. The consensus was why not as long as you don't change the character or aspects of those deities, and remember their origins. You don't adopt a deity or deities into your pantheon or practice just because you like the way they look. They have to mean something, and they have to be compatible with the practices of the path you take.

                I absolutely agree. There's also another concept that I believe in that fits nicely in here. I tend to borrow the language that Raven Kaldera uses for this... The Divine Answering Machine. It's a nifty way to explain the concept and it's the best term I've heard for it. I don't think that all the gods give everyone direct personal attention... they're too busy for that. I think that there is a certain amount of automatic response that is a sort of first line contact... The Divine Answering Machine. It's capable of throwing a little energy your way, repeating certain stock responses and creating enough 'presence' to get a lot of the tasks that we ask them for done. It's the deity, it's just... a small auto-pilot part of their awareness that doesn't require any actual effort on their part. I think the Divine Answering Machine is what most of us get from deities until we have proven our dedication and loyalty.
                That's another good one. Maybe this Divine Answering Machine (or receptionist ) routes these calls to the deity most willing or capable of handling the request. That's why I think it's sometimes hard to know just who responded. I don't think the deities are vindictive, but as teachers and guides I think sometimes give the opposite response. For example, last night I was going to practice some guitar. It may be because I was otherwise stressed or tired, but I couldn't do anything right, got frustrated and put the guitar away vowing I was going to sell them all at Guitar Center. I think because I went into it with a "blah" feeling, and a feeling of no faith, and not asking for help, it was either Saraswati or Bragi who may have said (quoting from Airplane!) "chump don't want da help, chump don't get da help".

                Unfortunately, Bilskirnir is only open as an option if Thorr wants to keep you around as a dedicant after you die. This is one of the modern Heathen concepts that I don't believe in... yes, we have multiple after-death options in the Northern traditions, but the personal halls of our patron gods is not necessarily one of them. Not for most of us, anyway. I'm open to the possibility, but if it's an option then I think it's only an option for a select few. Hela is the keeper of the non-battle slain, and I hear she takes her job very seriously.
                Yeah, that's all true. My upg says that your deity may take you into their hall if you prove extraordinary loyalty to them, or by some other mitigating circumstances. But otherwise, it's off to Helheim for the great unwashed masses. But there's the possibility that Helheim is a stop-over before a next life. I guess we won't know until we get there, wherever "there" is. That's one of the things that drives me batty about Hinduism... the arguments over whether we are Brahman and achieve moksha by realizing it, whether we spend time in Naraka or Svarga, or do we go to Vaikuntha, or, aw for cripes sake... just live a good life and be surprised.
                śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

                  Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                  That is indeed quite different from classical neo-paganism. I'm not familiar with shamanism, so I don't have a frame of reference. In a way this is also alluded to, no, actually stated by Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita. He says that (and remember he is speaking as the Supreme God in the BG) he will make steady the faith of anyone who devotes themselves to another deity... he has no problem with that... but those devotees of the other deities/devas will go to the worlds of those devas. Those who worship him will go to his world. So the idea of other worlds ruled by other deities is not without precedent even in Hinduism.
                  'Classical neo-paganism' tends to be pantheist and soft-polytheist at it's core, with room for hard polytheism if that's what you believe. It does make sense... that's one way to mash all the disparate beliefs together into a coherent whole and allow for the whole 'no one is wrong' thing that we try to aim for nowdays. It also has a few historic precedents... the Romans for example and the way that they absorbed foreign deities from conquered lands by equating them with their own. But it makes less sense to me than what I believe (obviously ). But we have historic precedents for this worldview as well.

                  Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                  This may be not unlike some of the new theoretical physics theories, especially by Michio Kaku, that universes and realities intersect. Maybe going off into left field here, he once said that when you have a moment of "now where did that person come from that I almost bumped into?" and the "came out of nowhere and then disappeared" may be these worlds/universes intersecting or crossing paths. I have begun to believe this.
                  Yeah I pull out the multiple universe hypotheses too sometimes. If physicist are thinking it, maybe it has some merit. The reality is that none of us can know... at least until we discover some way to measurably travel and record our experiences. We can't prove any of it, but we can't disprove it either. So we figure out what makes sense to us and stick our eggs in that basket. Maybe we'll keep them there, maybe we'll move them into another basket later on. It's a journey, not a destination.

                  Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                  I think of Athena and Ares, half-brother and half-sister in the same pantheon, both being gods of war, albeit different facets of war, and Athena simply cannot stand Ares. I also think it depends on the deity and the relationship one has with the deities. For example, I think Thor is laid-back and rowdy enough to say "hey sure, party with whoever, it's all good". It seems the most compatible deities, or rather of similar personalities, are among the Indo-European deities. Though I really know next to nothing of Mesopotamian, Egyptian or African deities. Except Yemaya who is a mother goddess. Which brings me to a thought... I'd bet any of the mother goddesses... Frigga, Lakshmi, Laima, Parvati/Durga (even in her fierce form as Kali), Yemaya would be cool with a devotee calling on any of them. After all, a child in need would run to anyone else's mother for help.
                  My impression of Frigg is that she has networking contacts, and that she (as Queen and ruler of her household) is accepting of pretty much anyone who needs shelter or aid. Hospitality and frith are her thing, so she will extend her hand for at least a short period of time. I work with her in her Head of the House capacity rather than her Mother role, but I do tend to agree with what you've said above. As an aside, I think that Frigg's 'mother' role is an interesting twist on the classical 'Mother' archetype. I certainly don't see her as the archetypal pregnant Mother with a cornucopia of plenty... if anyone in the Northern pantheons fits that image, it's Jordhr rather than Frigg. But Frigg has her own 'motherness'. She has only one child of her own, yet she has multiple step-children and she will extend her protection and gentle comfort over those in need. One thing that I particularly like about the Northern gods is their sense of community and extended kin... not just small family units and blood relations. Blood is important, but family is much more than blood. Sif and Thorr, for example, have a very blended family.

                  Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                  This is the reason I feel absolutely creepy about having Hindu, Buddhist (Green Tara, Chenrezig, Guan yin) and Norse deities in the same shrine. The Norse deities are rough and tumble, fond of food and drink... meat, ale, mead... but offering that in the same shrine with the Hindu deities is an affront to the Hindu deities. Meat and alcohol are absolutely contraindicated for their offerings. It's also proper to bow to them. As far as I've read, the Norse deities do not want anyone to bow or kneel or prostrate. I can imagine Thor saying "Get up!" You know, "when in Rome... " sort of thing. There was a discussion on another site asking whether it was OK for Wiccans to adopt Hindu deities into their practices. For example, Shiva and Shakti, or Vishnu and Lakshmi as God and Goddess. The consensus was why not as long as you don't change the character or aspects of those deities, and remember their origins. You don't adopt a deity or deities into your pantheon or practice just because you like the way they look. They have to mean something, and they have to be compatible with the practices of the path you take.
                  I absolutely agree.

                  Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                  Yeah, that's all true. My upg says that your deity may take you into their hall if you prove extraordinary loyalty to them, or by some other mitigating circumstances. But otherwise, it's off to Helheim for the great unwashed masses. But there's the possibility that Helheim is a stop-over before a next life. I guess we won't know until we get there, wherever "there" is. That's one of the things that drives me batty about Hinduism... the arguments over whether we are Brahman and achieve moksha by realizing it, whether we spend time in Naraka or Svarga, or do we go to Vaikuntha, or, aw for cripes sake... just live a good life and be surprised.
                  They have those arguments in Heathenry too, less so in the Northern Tradition. There are few religions that have so many after-death options... Helheim, Valholl, Folkvangr, Aegir's Hall, ancestor, disir, reincarnation, landvaettr, god-servant... and yet we have very little evidence in the Lore to suggest that there was any in depth thought about where we wanted to end up. Warriors wanted to end up an Valholl and no one wanted to be a burden on their children (as an old, ill or infirm person) but otherwise it seems that what came, came. I think that you end up where you end up... the only control that we have over it is to ensure that we live a life that is conducive to our preferred option. If you want to end up in Aegir's Hall, you need to spend a significant amount of time on the ocean risking being drowned!

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    'Classical neo-paganism' tends to be pantheist and soft-polytheist at it's core, with room for hard polytheism if that's what you believe. It does make sense... that's one way to mash all the disparate beliefs together into a coherent whole and allow for the whole 'no one is wrong' thing that we try to aim for nowdays. It also has a few historic precedents... the Romans for example and the way that they absorbed foreign deities from conquered lands by equating them with their own. But it makes less sense to me than what I believe (obviously ). But we have historic precedents for this worldview as well.
                    I think you are right about the "pantheist and soft-polytheist" view. Whenever I thought of polytheism, it was of the soft variety... that the gods were manifestations of either one God, or of natural concepts. That is a big discussion among "internet Hindus", but I tend to think that every day Hindus are semi-hard polytheists. I'm not quite a hard polytheist because I tend to hold onto the gods being viewed through a cultural lens. But that could change as I learn more. But I definitely don't hold with the Hindu concept anymore. Maybe that's the reason I have such a demarcation between the two pantheons.

                    Yeah I pull out the multiple universe hypotheses too sometimes. If physicist are thinking it, maybe it has some merit. The reality is that none of us can know... at least until we discover some way to measurably travel and record our experiences. We can't prove any of it, but we can't disprove it either. So we figure out what makes sense to us and stick our eggs in that basket. Maybe we'll keep them there, maybe we'll move them into another basket later on. It's a journey, not a destination.
                    Exactly. That's why I always use the "cop-out" it's all my upg. Sometimes I stretch that to its limits.

                    My impression of Frigg is that she has networking contacts, and that she (as Queen and ruler of her household) is accepting of pretty much anyone who needs shelter or aid. Hospitality and frith are her thing, so she will extend her hand for at least a short period of time. I work with her in her Head of the House capacity rather than her Mother role, but I do tend to agree with what you've said above. As an aside, I think that Frigg's 'mother' role is an interesting twist on the classical 'Mother' archetype. I certainly don't see her as the archetypal pregnant Mother with a cornucopia of plenty... if anyone in the Northern pantheons fits that image, it's Jordhr rather than Frigg. But Frigg has her own 'motherness'. She has only one child of her own, yet she has multiple step-children and she will extend her protection and gentle comfort over those in need. One thing that I particularly like about the Northern gods is their sense of community and extended kin... not just small family units and blood relations. Blood is important, but family is much more than blood. Sif and Thorr, for example, have a very blended family.
                    Yeah, very interesting way to look at it. Maybe because of the way the Northern deities are viewed, it's easier to see them as family and friends. For example, where, when and how the Hindu deities came to be depicted as they are, I don't know. There's a strict iconography that must be followed in depicting them, so as to show their attributes and powers. There is so much emphasis placed on them being God(dess) that it's hard, to me anyway, to view them as friends and family the way I can the Norse deities. For example, though Krishna and Arjuna were best friends and cousins, I don't see him as the big brother and bud I think of Thor as. I think few Hindus see the gods and goddesses in that family and friends way. I unquestionably feel closer to the Norse than I do the Hindu deities.

                    Now, I don't know if this is something I've talked myself into, or it's something being revealed to me... I feel the cultural and "framily" (ye gods, I hate buzzwords ) connection because even being of Italian and Sicilian descent, I've come to believe for several reasons that my family is of northern European, specifically Norman, origin. Our surname is an Italianized version of a Norman occupational title, and is cognate with a very common English name. It went to England from Normandy at the time of William the Conqueror. In the family, beginning at least with my paternal grandfather we have a mix of fair skin, reddish-brown hair, blond hair, blue eyes. I know that's not enough to make a claim as being Ragnar Lodbrok's 50th cousin 13 times removed ) but it's interesting. About 2/3 of modern Sicilians may very well be descendants of the Normans and/or Vandals. I'm going to have a DNA test done one of these days.

                    They have those arguments in Heathenry too, less so in the Northern Tradition. ...
                    Ironically perhaps because there is such a long break in the lore, there is less to argue over. That is, so much is being reconned it's easier to say "well, yeah you could be right, it's all upg based on what we have so far". We do have the Eddas and sagas, but I think a lot of what is practiced and believed in Asatru is only gleaned and pieced together from those. If it weren't for the Icelanders preserving them, I don't think we'd have even those.
                    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: When people tell you about your own religion.

                      Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                      Now, I don't know if this is something I've talked myself into, or it's something being revealed to me... I feel the cultural and "framily" (ye gods, I hate buzzwords ) connection because even being of Italian and Sicilian descent, I've come to believe for several reasons that my family is of northern European, specifically Norman, origin. Our surname is an Italianized version of a Norman occupational title, and is cognate with a very common English name. It went to England from Normandy at the time of William the Conqueror. In the family, beginning at least with my paternal grandfather we have a mix of fair skin, reddish-brown hair, blond hair, blue eyes. I know that's not enough to make a claim as being Ragnar Lodbrok's 50th cousin 13 times removed ) but it's interesting. About 2/3 of modern Sicilians may very well be descendants of the Normans and/or Vandals. I'm going to have a DNA test done one of these days.
                      lol I can actually trace my ancestry back to Ragnar Lothbrok. Well, to Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye, anyway (plus via two lines to apparent daughters). We have no historical 'proof' that Ragnar was an actual historical person, though we can 'prove' several of his sons. Once you get that far back, though, you are tracing based on lore and obscure history rather than actual legit documentation, so I'm sure that wouldn't stand up in court

                      When we started watching 'Vikings' Torey was like... Hey, that's your ancestor I was telling you about! The hairy-britches guy!

                      Anyway... most people of European descent can trace their ancestry to Viking Age Northerners of some description. Even Torey, who is small and dark, has some Northern ancestry. I don't think actual bloodline ancestry is a necessary thing when working with the Northern gods. Some Heathen groups think that it is, but there are enough Heathens that don't have direct Northern descent to tell us it's not necessary.

                      Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                      Ironically perhaps because there is such a long break in the lore, there is less to argue over. That is, so much is being reconned it's easier to say "well, yeah you could be right, it's all upg based on what we have so far". We do have the Eddas and sagas, but I think a lot of what is practiced and believed in Asatru is only gleaned and pieced together from those. If it weren't for the Icelanders preserving them, I don't think we'd have even those.
                      You must be traveling in the right Heathen circles Hardcore recons take these things very seriously and would be aghast at being told all they have is UPG. You are absolutely right, of course... our primary sources were oral stories and traditions written down by Christian monks several hundreds years after the conversion (the Edda and the Sagas); 'first-hand' accounts of foreigners observing a very small proportion of Germanic warriors and Rus traders (Tacitus and Ibn Fadlan); a single Danish historian (Saxo Grammaticus); and a series of rune stones and artifacts that didn't come with explanatory manuals (about which we can speculate, at best). Not exactly an accurate and complete picture of what went on in the Viking Age North. Realistically, recon Heathenry is pieced together from the primary sources, from secondary sources (anthropologists and historians, like HR Ellis Davidson, Simek etc) and from a bit of modern ingenuity that many Heathens like to think is not UPG but which essentially is.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Hard Polytheist Cosmology

                        It's probably a good thing that I'm too lazy to be a real troll.
                        life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                        Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                        "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                        John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                        "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                        Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Hard Polytheist Cosmology

                          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                          It's probably a good thing that I'm too lazy to be a real troll.
                          Go on... you know I can take whatever you wanna throw at me

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Hard Polytheist Cosmology

                            Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                            Go on... you know I can take whatever you wanna throw at me
                            *snort*

                            wasn't talking about you. I was referring to

                            Hardcore recons take these things very seriously and would be aghast at being told all they have is UPG.
                            If I were more dedicated to the trolling art then I'd be doing background research on Heathenry and then looking up some Heathen boards to go start flamewars in. Unfortunately, laziness trumps trolling.
                            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                            Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                            "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                            "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Hard Polytheist Cosmology

                              Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                              *snort*

                              wasn't talking about you. I was referring to



                              If I were more dedicated to the trolling art then I'd be doing background research on Heathenry and then looking up some Heathen boards to go start flamewars in. Unfortunately, laziness trumps trolling.
                              Ah well that's boring! But you aren't too lazy for trolling, MO... you just don't have the time to do it properly. World domination is time consuming work.

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