Daddy Issues

[Bjorn]

IKR, everyone's favorite topic.

Help me see the forest through the trees.

I've been trying to be a bigger part of my family's lives but the more I talk to my dad and try to connect with him, the less and less I like him as a person. It makes it hard to be close and actively love him, which I'm trying to do. I will also go on the record and say that I love my dad, but my feelings are conflicted and I'm talking about my issues, so please do not misunderstand my frustration for hatred or cruelty.

Preface: he's a 57-year-old conservative Christian from an awfully dysfunctional family, and has never changed his opinion on anything in the 27 years I've known him.

We can't talk about anything important, like religion, spirituality, politics, or anything deep or revealing because all we do is disagree. Mix in some old-timey conservatism, stubborn literal Christianity, a patronizing attitude that assumes I simply don't know enough about the world, and you've got a recipe for resentment and irritability. On the whole, we have nothing to say to each other. There is literally nothing to talk about, and he's a stoic man who doesn't open up, so there's not a whole lot of common ground. He doesn't get my sense of humor, his jokes are lame dad-jokes, and he's self-loathing and chronically melancholy (though he can't admit any of these things to himself, nor is he at all emotionally honest).

Now, let me be clear, *I* never bring up any of these hot-button topics. Instead, he can't stop himself from bringing them up as passive-aggressive statements that I have to ignore because otherwise it'll start a disagreement. For example, I was talking about my job (I take calls helping people to enroll in the Health Insurance Marketplace) and I couldn't even finish my statement about how I was glad to be helping people when he basically told me that I wasn't helping people, and then went into a tirade about liberals and Obama. Then, when I tried to say that I didn't want to talk about it, he said that he "thought it was weak" that I didn't want to continue our conversation.

He's a stoic, quiet man who doesn't reveal much of himself. Also, I'm not a Christian and while I'm in their house I can't be myself because I must be on my best behavior. There's no drinking, no swearing, no inappropriate joking, no biting sarcasm, no brutal honesty... and guys, that's pretty much me in a nutshell. Instead, I am a watered down version of myself tailored to fit what is acceptable in the household.

The thought of having to listen to another sermon this Christmas is making me physically ill. I'm stressed out.

We have much in common -- certain tastes in music, a tendency to stand on principle, and stubbornness to name a few, and he IS a good guy, but we do not see eye to eye on anything, and I'm sick of being the only one who has to make any changes. I'm sick of being the bigger person. I'm sick of not saying what I want to say. I'm sick of being the only person trying to heal the relationship. I'm sick of him.

What the fuck do I do? I can't see the forest through the trees. I don't want to give up, but I don't really want him as a primary part of my life (but that stresses my mom out, so I have to).

[Munin-Hugin]

Well, the first thing that came to mind when you mentioned at the end the things the two of you have in common, was that there would be a good place to start. To be honest, I think he would be more upset if you changed your ideas simply to please him. I feel that it would mean much more to him that you were to stick to your guns rather than to become a mere shell.

Argue with him, get into those long and difficult conversations, and maybe when it's all said and done there will be something more there than there was before, simply because no one backed down or avoided the topic. Instead, be the stubborn, stand-on-principle person that you both are.

Of course, I could be talking out of my ass, or it could be my confrontational Heathen attitude coming into play. Lol

[Rae'ya]

Is he the sort of person who actually likes to argue? Sometimes grouchy older dads who are set in their ways get this perverse sense of pleasure and pride at seeing their children stand up for themselves and hold their own in a fight. The problem is that we don't really know how to argue anymore. A 'good fight' is one where you disagree, you can both state your opinions, argue against them, hold your own and come out with no one winning the argument... but it means that you can't take it personally or make it personal. People who are losing a fight will start making it personal. And there is NO ONE better at making it personal than a girl's father. They are experts at pushing your buttons and sending you into a fuming state of arrgh STFU. Then they decide they've won, are smug and self satisfied then get angry because you're mad and taking it too seriously. This is what jerk older dad's do. It's what mine does. The point is that no one wins... no one is supposed to win. No one is supposed to change their opinions. You just have to learn how to not take it personally, how to react appropriately when they start making it personal, and how to drop it and pretend like it never happened five seconds after it's over (going to get the next round of drinks is a good way... whether that be another beer or a cheerful 'it's time to put the kettle on, I think'). Not that I'm advocating starting a fight in your parents' house... just trying to look at it in a different light.

I'm lucky in that my jerk father is not married to my mum (they split when I was 12) and I rarely have to see him. But he's the same. We have no similar interests, no point of common ground and we're both as stubborn and aggressive as each other. He likes to shit-stir and argue and get you mad (then get angry when you're mad and taking it too seriously). Over the years he's mellowed a bit, but we used to clash horns all the time. We generally talk about silly superficial stuff like how everyone is, how's work going, when are we having kids, how's the house... then after ten minutes have nothing more to say to each other. The last visit, we got some connection on nostalgia, funnily enough. He had some photos from when we were kids and we talked about the pets we used to have. It was the most 'connected' I've been with him for 10-15 years. So maybe try that if you don't want to try a 'good fight'?

The problem with parents is that they aren't 'people'... they're 'parents'. And I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I just mean that you can't expect them to act like people. Because they aren't. They are your parents. He's your dad. And as far as he's concerned, until you are married and have kids and are in your 40's, you're his daughter and he will keep treating you like his daughter. Which means he's not going to treat you like an equal adult. Because in his mind you aren't. None of that is fair, but it's the way many parents of that generation work. They THINK they are treating you like adults, and if you confront them with it then they will give you fifty ways that they are treating you like an adult. But in the end you are still his daughter and you're under his roof and you will respect him blah blah blah. Sometimes I wonder if this is why so many parent-child relationships go horribly wrong at this age (late 20's)... because we start expecting them to treat us like the fully grown, intelligent, independent and capable adults that we are. But we're still their children, and growing up doesn't take that away. It's also a tricky stage for them. Because they've known us since we were born, they knew us better than any other person on the planet, but now we've been out of their house for a few years, we've matured, and we're not the same person they remember so fondly when they tell their friends about their brilliant and fantastic daughter. There is so much extra stuff in the relationship that it can not possibly be one of two equal adults who met as friends and like to catch up for coffee.

Daughters and fathers are particularly tricky, I think. Especially older fathers. We are worldly enough now to recognise that they are bigoted, bitter, repressed, conservative, stubborn, unable to express affection and a little bit sexist. And we don't like that, because the world has moved on and that's no longer the acceptable standard for men. But that was the standard in their formative years. They haven't changed... WE'VE changed. So when we lose sight of that loving, protective father we had as a child (though that's not how I'd describe mine) and start seeing this stubborn, argumentative bigot... that's hard. And I wonder if they recognise some of that, but don't know how to deal with it, because no one ever taught them the skills to deal with it. We start to dislike our father as a person, and that's a very tricky place to be in.

Remember that you can absolutely love someone without liking them. I love my father. I do. And despite all the shit as a child, I do have some fond memories. But I dislike him as a person and I'd rather not have to deal with him wherever possible. Because I don't like him and it's awkward having to talk to him and I hate that I have to be the responsible adult person in that relationship. I'm lucky that I don't have to. You do. I've been trying to explain to people since I was 12 that I love my dad, I just don't like him. But not everyone gets it. People think that you have to be a loving, affectionate, perpetually happy little unit in order to be a 'functional' family. But I don't think that's true.

Your dad is your dad. He's been this way for 57 years and he's not going to change. He's caught in that difficult spot where he's learning that you are you, and you've been that way for 27 years and you don't have to change anything just for him. Some dads don't learn that, and they lose us. Some dads take a few years. It's never going to be like it was when you were 10. Because you are not the same person you were when you were 10. Which means that your relationship is, and should be, very different now. That's hard for some people, on both sides.

Long story short... try to learn how to not take it personally. If you can do that, you'll be able to evolve your relationship into something that is strong despite his (and your) flaws. It's not fair that we have to do all the work, but if the relationship is important to you, you'll figure out how to manage with that. Because at 57, it's not that your dad doesn't want to change to save the relationship, but that he doesn't know how to change. It took a near death experience (actually, 4 hours of a near-death experience) and the almost-loss of a limb to change my 50yo dad. So the onus is generally on us, even though that's not fair. And you don't have to like him in order to love him. So don't try to force yourself to like him or even to enjoy spending time with him. It's okay to not like him.

[Hawkfeathers]

I had a rough time with my dad when I was in my teens/early 20's, but as I got older it got much better. My mother went the opposite way and we eventually stopped speaking. At some point you must simply be yourself, in a respectful manner to them, but clearly show that you are an adult, (marriage and/or kids have nothing to do with it). One thing that I found helpful was, if he started picking on me being too independent, I'd say well remember when you taught me to tie my shoes and you REFUSED to help me, and insisted I do it myself from then on? You wanted an independent person, you raised one! (Said nicely and with a smile.)

I'm your father's age now LOL and I remember all of this very clearly. When you're in his house, you have to bite the bullet a little - and then make sure he does the same at your house.

[Medusa]

A few things I see that maybe you can't see through your Forrest of dad woes. I can't say I understand where you are coming from at all. I will preface this with the fact I lost my father when I was 11. No, I won't start saying things like love your dad while you can. Some dads just suck. Things to keep in mind.

You've known him half of his life. The latter half. You have no idea who he was before you came into his world. He sounds like the first half of his life just made him this way. And you will never be able to understand what that was like. It's who he is. It's a horrible thing to have to face. Knowing you love a flawed human being who you also dislike. It's hard to reconcile the both and find sure footing. I know this from experience in loving my mother. I had to learn to accept her just as she was. To see her as her own woman who when I came into her life, was already forming who she was.

YOU are the only one who controls this relationship. YOU are the only one open enough to see the truth of things. You can either accept him and suck it up when you are around him. Or you don't and you keep him at a phone call's distance. Or none at all. You may want to look for other solutions. But in all honesty, they are going to come down to those options really. You have the power here. And though your choices don't really sound great, each has its benefits and let downs. I suggest sitting down somewhere quiet and writing these down. Then help yourself make an informed decision. Just know we are here for you. We can help you by listening to you vent your frustrations. We can help you work through your list (if you choose to come up with one). And we can just hold your internet hand. Or give you an internet shoulder.

[anubisa]

I'm in a situation similar to yours. Most of my family is Catholic. My brother-in-law said to me that the god I worship is a false god last year. Ever since then, when i'm at my sister's house for dinner, I hold hands, but don't cross myself. I'm respectful, even if it's uncomfortable to me. You have to choose how you want your relationship to be with your father. You may have to address him and say, 'Look, I have a different religion than you, if you can't deal with it then i'm sorry but I don't have to participate in your religion.' If you suck it up, like Medusa says, then you may be uncomfortable with them. It all depends on you and what you want. We're here to support you if you need us.

[Gleb]

A few things I see that maybe you can't see through your Forrest of dad woes. I can't say I understand where you are coming from at all. I will preface this with the fact I lost my father when I was 11. No, I won't start saying things like love your dad while you can. Some dads just suck. Things to keep in mind.

You've known him half of his life. The latter half. You have no idea who he was before you came into his world. He sounds like the first half of his life just made him this way. And you will never be able to understand what that was like. It's who he is. It's a horrible thing to have to face. Knowing you love a flawed human being who you also dislike. It's hard to reconcile the both and find sure footing. I know this from experience in loving my mother. I had to learn to accept her just as she was. To see her as her own woman who when I came into her life, was already forming who she was.

YOU are the only one who controls this relationship. YOU are the only one open enough to see the truth of things. You can either accept him and suck it up when you are around him. Or you don't and you keep him at a phone call's distance. Or none at all. You may want to look for other solutions. But in all honesty, they are going to come down to those options really. You have the power here. And though your choices don't really sound great, each has its benefits and let downs. I suggest sitting down somewhere quiet and writing these down. Then help yourself make an informed decision. Just know we are here for you. We can help you by listening to you vent your frustrations. We can help you work through your list (if you choose to come up with one). And we can just hold your internet hand. Or give you an internet shoulder.

I agree with Medusa here.
I want also to add, that you don't have to talk about things that evolve into a conflict. It doesn't mean you're weak at all. It means you want to avoid any kind of conflict with him. Ignore words like "weak". There is no such thing as weak, when it comes to things like this. You are free to choose the things you want to talk about, and those that you don't.

- - - Updated - - -

You may have to address him and say, 'Look, I have a different religion than you, if you can't deal with it then i'm sorry but I don't have to participate in your religion.' If you suck it up, like Medusa says, then you may be uncomfortable with them. It all depends on you and what you want. We're here to support you if you need us.

Totally...

[Bjorn]

Is he the sort of person who actually likes to argue? Sometimes grouchy older dads who are set in their ways get this perverse sense of pleasure and pride at seeing their children stand up for themselves and hold their own in a fight.

I think that may be very insightful, and I will definitely keep that in consideration. I would definitely not say that my dad is a person who likes to argue. He is a gentle spirit who has a deep sensitive side and therefore confrontation is something that he runs from (and I tend to run towards it), so I think that you may be right and that he simply wants to exercise his own intellect when we debate, and when I don't want to be a willing participant, he thinks less of me because:
1. I have deprived him of a chance to stretch his mental legs
2. I have not shown myself to be intelligent

Now I shall try to get over #2, because that bothers me, but that's in my control.

Daughters and fathers are particularly tricky, I think. Especially older fathers. We are worldly enough now to recognise that they are bigoted, bitter, repressed, conservative, stubborn, unable to express affection and a little bit sexist. And we don't like that, because the world has moved on and that's no longer the acceptable standard for men. But that was the standard in their formative years. They haven't changed... WE'VE changed. So when we lose sight of that loving, protective father we had as a child (though that's not how I'd describe mine) and start seeing this stubborn, argumentative bigot... that's hard. And I wonder if they recognise some of that, but don't know how to deal with it, because no one ever taught them the skills to deal with it. We start to dislike our father as a person, and that's a very tricky place to be in.

This is so spot on. It's what I've been trying to reconcile myself with, because I KNOW he's all of the things that I can't stand, AND a smart, sensitive, sweet man. He's complete. I'm complete. And we don't fit nicely next to each other, but we seem to both want to be there, in a strange way. He brags to my mom if I call him. And then when he sees me, he'll lecture me about my choices. -_- We're both shit at expressing emotions.

Your dad is your dad. He's been this way for 57 years and he's not going to change. He's caught in that difficult spot where he's learning that you are you, and you've been that way for 27 years and you don't have to change anything just for him.

Truf.

I've always known that I need to outfox him but it can be so exhausting being the only one who ever seems to put forth the effort.

But I've come up with a genius idea: he's in a truck all day, so I got him the audiobook to 'Treasure Island' and told him I bought myself one too, that way we can read it together, bond, have a reason to call, and always have something to say when we call.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, the first thing that came to mind when you mentioned at the end the things the two of you have in common, was that there would be a good place to start. To be honest, I think he would be more upset if you changed your ideas simply to please him. I feel that it would mean much more to him that you were to stick to your guns rather than to become a mere shell.

Argue with him, get into those long and difficult conversations, and maybe when it's all said and done there will be something more there than there was before, simply because no one backed down or avoided the topic. Instead, be the stubborn, stand-on-principle person that you both are.

Of course, I could be talking out of my ass, or it could be my confrontational Heathen attitude coming into play. Lol

I would argue with him if it went anywhere or accomplished anything or brought us closer together, but after 27 years I know it's not worth it. I'm a confrontational person as well when it makes sense, but part of being a good warrior is knowing when no to draw your sword. When he's quoting Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh and all that, it makes me hate him. It makes me forget all of his good qualities and yes, I know that is my issue, but it's not worth it to me to remind myself constantly of everything I hate about him.

- - - Updated - - -

I had a rough time with my dad when I was in my teens/early 20's, but as I got older it got much better. My mother went the opposite way and we eventually stopped speaking. At some point you must simply be yourself, in a respectful manner to them, but clearly show that you are an adult, (marriage and/or kids have nothing to do with it). One thing that I found helpful was, if he started picking on me being too independent, I'd say well remember when you taught me to tie my shoes and you REFUSED to help me, and insisted I do it myself from then on? You wanted an independent person, you raised one! (Said nicely and with a smile.)

I'm your father's age now LOL and I remember all of this very clearly. When you're in his house, you have to bite the bullet a little - and then make sure he does the same at your house.

I'm always respectful, I just feel like no one is respectful of me because I identify with atheism and Satanism and those are the two most foul things to the Christian mythology (when the believers are fundamentalists). I don't bring these things up or throw them in anyone's face or even bring attention to it -- I bow my head for prayer, I don't swear, I observe the respectful courtesy that I would want. I even purchased gifts that revolved around Christianity this year which I would not have done in earlier years because I'm trying to get people things that they want.

- - - Updated - - -

YOU are the only one who controls this relationship. YOU are the only one open enough to see the truth of things. You can either accept him and suck it up when you are around him. Or you don't and you keep him at a phone call's distance. Or none at all. You may want to look for other solutions. But in all honesty, they are going to come down to those options really. You have the power here. And though your choices don't really sound great, each has its benefits and let downs. I suggest sitting down somewhere quiet and writing these down. Then help yourself make an informed decision. Just know we are here for you. We can help you by listening to you vent your frustrations. We can help you work through your list (if you choose to come up with one). And we can just hold your internet hand. Or give you an internet shoulder.

Those first two sentences were very poignant. I think I've always known that and found it to be exhausting because it always depends on me and I stand there like... seriously? You're 57. But yes, it is unfair to expect anything else from him. He is who he is. I am who I am. I obviously want him in my life if I'm trying to outfox him for the sake of our relationship.

And I refused to be bested. :3

[Medusa]

The hardest thing about being an atheist is the same hardest thing about being a Satanist. It's not wanting to make people understand you. Do not try. You will drive yourself into the ground with insanity. I rarely talk to anyone about my belief system in Satanism. I know it will not be understood. I do not hide it. But my friends know I'm extremely private about these beliefs. When first coming into Satanism, it can be like being a born again Christian. It's exciting. It's new. It's wonderous because you feel someone gets you. That there are people who will understand what it truly means.

And now the hard sobering truth. Not even other Satanists will get you or like you or even accept that you are a Satanist. We are wolves in the world of sheep and other wolf type creatures. We are solitary in our beliefs. And it's extremely individualized. When you speak to someone about Satanism you are only speaking your opinion of what you gleam from it. It won't be the same for everyone. I speak to those who seem open and who come to me respectfully about it. Those who don't, I keep to myself. I live my Satanism more than I speak it. It's surprising though that the Satanists here all get along. Considering I think most are of Theistic and I'm the lone atheistic.

I've always stated the same thing in the past about Satanism. Be prepared to stand one deep in the trenches. No one is there for you. That neither should frighten you or surprise you. Your loved ones will not accept your Satanism. If you can accept that, your life can be good.

[Bjorn]

And now the hard sobering truth. Not even other Satanists will get you or like you or even accept that you are a Satanist. We are wolves in the world of sheep and other wolf type creatures. We are solitary in our beliefs...I've always stated the same thing in the past about Satanism. Be prepared to stand one deep in the trenches. No one is there for you

Yeah, I don't mention it to anyone because I have to know when to pick my battles. I don't mention anything more than a fondness for the fictional character of Lucifer, and my literary nerdiness is really where that comes from (thanks Imre Madach).

And honestly, the thought that I stand alone has been a lifelong understanding, honestly. It's what drew me to bear. Solitary. Misunderstood. Duality (teddy or mauling). The lone, quiet space that allows me to do as I see, feel, and consider fit is the most empowering thing.

I'm gonna try to love the shit outta my dad. And when I get annoyed, I'll take a break.