Thracian mythology

[kazumi]

Hey there,

I've sort of started a journey to study some of the Balkan mythology, mainly being interested in the Thracian right now. I've pillaged Google & have plenty to read for now but it seems like a lot of the information overlaps and a lot of the sites aren't sourced. One mentioned they didn't have a written language of their own back then (which somehow is a bit hard to believe for me haha. Less extreme but similar to African civilization, old/ancient Eastern Europe is made out to be less civilised than it was I think... But I haven't read about it ...yet )

Anyway, does anyone know some good books on the topic for me to tackle after I'm done with examining what I've pillaged & the books on Greek mythology I have? I went to a book store when I was on vacation but couldn't find any & I'll probably be visiting the library soon.

Made myself a bit of a 'study challenge', with a different 'dominating' topic to study about for every month until about July/August & thereafter I should revist the topics of the other months. It's promising to be quite the awesome year in that regard It may sound a bit simplistic of a system but hey, I have a pretty big 'shiny objects syndrome' to conquer so every battle strategy is welcome.

I read an interesting article on Artemis too (often seen to be the Greek equivalent of Bendis, I learnt though there are a few symbolic differences ^^/testing out what I remember as I write this out/)

goddessinspired.wordpress dot com/2012/04/02/artemis-the-goddess-of-the-amazons/
(Edit: is it really a problem to post links?)

'I dunno', I think one shouldn't get TOO focused on 'the big bad wolf' trying to suppress certain demographical groups BUT brain food is always welcome! (Mainly because the more time one spends focused on his presence, and information that is not essential to understanding his ways and finding a solution, is time not spent.... Finding & executing the solution!) And that Kallisto being her alter ego idea is definitely brain food...

I think that many things can be simple, including important matters, but when it comes to questions about a person and his/her self... (Over)simplified answers are an invitation for the Universe to go ahead and shake your life up to show you that 'the opposite of what you know is also true' until you get it haha. So the idea of Artemis-Kallisto appeals to me (although not the best example for what I mean since I guess you could view them as archetypes in which there can be a black-and-white description...That's the idea!) I'm going to go ahead and make the main text&question of this thread BOLD because I went on quite a few tangent lines. Nice to meet you, that's how I roll, unapologetically :angel: (It's a work in progress to not do so too much) Luckily I don't mind explaining myself & the connections between the topics that my brain made haha

Sharing the rough drafts of my thoughts & getting feedback (albeit harsh) is the best learning way for me... I've been told that means I'm not a perfectionist at all but isn't it easier to perfect something while the foundations are being laid? 'I dunno, I dunno..' Most things are a matter of perspective

[monsno_leedra]

http://www.jstor.org/stable/148342
Accessed: 08/11/2009 13:44

The Torch Race of Bendis
Cecil Smith
The Classical Review, Vol. 13, No. 4. (May, 1899), pp. 230-232.
Stable URL:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-840X%28189905%291%3A13%3A4%3C230%3ATTROB%3E2.0.CO%3B2-6

The Classical Review is currently published by The Classical Association.

Childbirth Votives and Rituals in Ancient Greece not a jstor article but a PHD thesis project that is a good read.



Thracian Magic past & Present has some mythology aspects included by Georgi Mishev

A pretty good research site. http://philipharland.com/greco-roman-associations/

[habbalah]

Re: Thracian mythology

All I'll say is if that link is your source then your in a world of trouble.[/url]

Would you mind clarifying why that link is a world of trouble for her? I don't know much about the topic, so I'm curious.

[thalassa]

Re: Thracian mythology

(Edit: is it really a problem to post links?)

Sorry, Its an anti-spam thing...you can post links after 15 non-intro, non-lol's/games posts (Forum FAQs).

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Thracian mythology

Would you mind clarifying why that link is a world of trouble for her? I don't know much about the topic, so I'm curious.

Let's start with this part here.

Again, I believe, this was a form of propaganda in order to help change the Greek worldview to a patriarchal one.


Firstly, the myth of Kallisto changes the meaning of Parthenos “virgin” from “being unbound” to “being chaste”. In order for patriarchy to work maidens must not lie with a man prior to marriage and must be faithful to their husbands thereafter. Based on Zeus’ and Hera’s character, husbands were allowed to play the field as it were, while wives were allowed to be jealous.
Secondly, through this particular myth Artemis-Kallisto is fractured into the chaste Artemis and the “slutty” Kallisto. Kallisto who represents Artemis’ baser nature is then banished to the back and beyond. Sadly this very split and the associated value judgement continue to affect women still today.

It's a common claim of the feminist slant on things. Only thing is it immediately requires one to forget the other companion's that were associated with Artemis and did leave her company. Even to the point of one of them going for a husband and Artemis giving her a spear to lure him back. It ignores the very critical nature of Artemis and the ethics that are tied to many of her stories about being truthful and honest which also contrasts against the ego that you see when Artemis slays the daughter's of Niobe when their mother chooses to compare her children to that of Leto who only has two, ie Apollo and Artemis.

It basically ignores the entire issue of breaking the trust with Artemis by hiding and lying about it. Only to be discovered when she can no longer hide it and is forced to tell the truth. So for a situation where honestly, truthfulness and integrity are binding issue's they are forsaken as Artemis is lied to. Yet we get an idea of Artemis' concept of lies when we see what she does to Chione after she gets proud and vain after having an affair with Apollo.

Of course one must also ignore the fact that the lore sometimes say Artemis, sometimes says Hera and other times claims both were responsible for her being changed into a bear.

It is said that Artemis, the Maiden Goddess of the Moon, once was one with the Semitic Great Mother Goddess Astarte. That She was one with Leto, Her Mother, and Hekate, Her Crone self. That is most likely why She retained the Crone aspects of Midwifery, Wisdom and Prophesy.

Then we can add this little piece. No one knows who the Amazon's might have worshipped though we assume it was in some capacity equated to the Ephesian Artemis. Though its more suspected to be a Kybele / Cybele association more than an Astarte comparison. Then the ever popular attempt to make Hekate an aspect of Artemis which really doesn't take hold until the Story of Orestes and Igphenyia (sp) and how Igphenyia assumes the role of Hekate in story then Artemis takes her via sacrifice as they are returning from the Trojan war. As an aside one might also compare and contrast the development of the Olympian Pantheon that occurs after the Trojan war and the shuffling of positions of gods / goddesses. Figure Artemis was a supporter of the Trojans and equated to Anatolia by the location of Delphi and later suggestion she was actually born near Ephesus / Ephesos. BY merging the two she also becomes a sister of Apollo and joined into the Olympian pantheon mythos. Her status as an eternal pre-pubescent girl of Olympian lore is somewhat ensured when Hera, during the War, fights Artemis and takes her bow and arrows from her and sends her retreating before the presence of an adult woman. Nicely robbing her of her Mistress of Animals and fertility aspects she holds through out the region.

Then you have the temple of Hekate at Lagina that so many try to equate to some capacity to Ephesian Artemis or her temple at Sardis which is about 100 miles from Ephesus / Ephesos. Ignoring the fact that Lagina does not really gain fame as a temple / sanctuary for Hekate until the 2nd century AD and during the roman period. Little is known about which goddess had a temple there under the Carians / Karians.

So as later writers attempt to show the lineage of the various Gods / Goddess you see Hekate get shuffled around. Then one might factor in the belief that one god / goddess might be seen acting like another and you get conflated names. Thus Artemis-Hekate of the crossroads where it is acknowledged Hekate holds sway but for some reason Artemis is acting in a manner that suggests Hekate. The same occurs when you see Hekate-Artemis of the wilderness. Hekate is doing something that is reflective of Artemis' influence but you know its Hekate. Then it becomes a bit more conflated when you start trying to factor in more local goddess such as Tri-Formus (Roman), Enodia (Thracian), Diana Nemorensis (Hekate and Artemis in three bodies).

That doesn't even really account for the "Golden" associations in earlier writings that suggest Artemis was actually a solar goddess at one point. Yet once conflated with Apollo she had to become a lunar goddess more than a solar goddess. A shift you will see when Greek mercs move into Egypt and both Bastet and Pahket will transition from Solar goddess into more lunar based goddess as they become conflated with Artemis. About the only remaining golden characteristic will be the Golden Hinds who pull her chariot.

From a historical aspect the difference between the various persona's of Artemis will be reflected pretty well in the coinage of the Hellenic period, and later Roman periods. In Anatolia and modern Turkey you'll see the many breasted type statuary item depicted on coins. Yet Hekate will hold a different place in coinage and be especially located near Stratonekia (sp) which ties into the procession of the Keys and such. Depicted as a three faced form, a three bodied form or standing upon a globe and suggestive of a three presence form. The coins of the northern area of Greece, modern Bulgaria and black sea regions will depict the advancing form of Artemis holding either twin torches, a singular long torch or a hunting spear. The spear / torches associated with Bendis and her spear being the weapon most depicted with her. when you get into lower Greece and such you encounter more of the agrotera type huntress with a bow, arrow and deer or dogs. Yet the dogs will also cross over into the later Roman period and possibly be equated to the dogs that are associated with Diana. Of course the main temple at Ephesus / Ephesos will be renamed to Diana though the actual statuary will not change. The coins from Lacadonia (sp) ie Sparta also have imagery more unique to them along with Votive offerings which will be discovered near Orthia.

Most will ignore the history at Varvrona and the Arkteia or bear maidens from Athens. Especially the age associations and how they relate to both the Taurian influence and the Agrotera / Cynthia influence of the pre-pubescent maiden. Will ignore the birthing history and the offerings and prayers to Artemis for a safe delivery or a quick and painless death. So its not really childbirth that she is equated to but quick and painless death should things do wrong. A situation which occurred quite frequently if accounts and stories are to be believed.

Yet once again attempts are made to tie it to Hekate and her role which myth wise develops around her raising the infant Zeus and hiding him in her cave. Then Zeus being beholden to her and ensuring she retains her control and influence over Heaven, Earth and water.

I won't even go into the pseudo history of the Amazon's the author is presenting. Though many place the Amazon's above the Black sea region not in Bulgaria or Anatolia ie modern Turkey. Vaguely recall them being encountered while seeking Hyperboria which is supposed to lay in a northern area and snowy which some place more towards the Asian area and the Amazon's more towards modern India.

[habbalah]

Re: Thracian mythology

Thank you very much for clarifying.

[kazumi]

Re: Thracian mythology

monsno_leedra
First of all, thank you for the literature recommendations!
Secondly, I don't know how many times exactly I mentioned in my post that I just came across it and it was an interesting idea. No matter what all books say and disregarding whether I find it accurate, it's an interesting idea to entertain. A wise one was who had once said "An open mind is important...but if you open your mind too much our brain might fall out." but still.

(Maybe not many times literally but "I dunno"I don't think one should get too focused on....", )

Given that I've actually know just that little bit enough about Greek mythology to be able to read that article and notice that it's a bit 'speculative' or what's the word....

On a completely different note, I used to be very against the whole so-called feminist take on things but the past year I've been experimenting with ways to get myself OVER it. By sometimes mentioning things/articles that have that ring to them. Because to be fair, "truth is truth no matter who speaks it & justice is justice no matter who receives it" and if I'm so turned off when I start hearing or reading words that have that stereotypical/internet feminist ring to them... Then I can't properly 'see' what someone is saying. (This is how I only judge myself & no-one else for the record... and I do realise you replied in the way you did simply because it was incorrect information/portrayal of information and not because of the way the text 'sounded') SO YEAH! No worries, I tend to take everything I read with a grain of salt lol

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, Its an anti-spam thing...you can post links after 15 non-intro, non-lol's/games posts (Forum FAQs).

Ahhh, no problem. Of course I should've read the FAQ. But I cheated instead with the whole 'dot' idea. Woops. Thanks

- - - Updated - - -

Let's start with this part here.
I won't even go into the pseudo history of the Amazon's the author is presenting. Though many place the Amazon's above the Black sea region not in Bulgaria or Anatolia ie modern Turkey. Vaguely recall them being encountered while seeking Hyperboria which is supposed to lay in a northern area and snowy which some place more towards the Asian area and the Amazon's more towards modern India.

Ohh thank you. I was confused about that too. The Amazons there? Mainly because of the rest of the text I was much more leaning towards it not being accurate so hurray for gut feeling & your review of the article.

(Ahh I really enjoy this, interracting about these topics. And reading more about them again.)

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Thracian mythology

I don't persay dislike all feminist stuff but when it comes to Artemis / Diana / Hekate its seems there are a lot of flakes out there. Sadly it seems lots of them come up under pagan pages and try to pass their pseudo history off as fact. Then it seems as if, to me anyway, they clump up and pat each other on the back via comments and such about how great the info was.

Reminds me of the Hekate's Wheel stuff and the many references to the Chaldean Oracles

"Labour about the Hecatick Strophalus" verse 194

and claim that is the inspiration for the design of the image. Yet as an image it's not found at any temple, shrine or sanctuary for Hekate. It also tends to ignore the history where a Strophalus is a cube like devise that was probably filled with coals and spun about the head to burn up what was inside of it or spread it out and fling it away from the spinner. That and the assumption that it might actually refer to a jinx or spinning wheel that was used in some forms of magic and often sounded like a bird or wind chime and is seen as a burning wheel type image above or between people on older engravings or pottery. Jade Sol Luna in his Hekate books at least shows the design and how he equates each section of it and what he places as implied meanings. But I don't recall him claiming it to be some archaic item.

Artemis has a colorful history of her own and tied equally to women and men which tends to be ignored. It's like Artemis' involvement at Marathon and the later festivals and offerings to her at Athens for her aid in the victory are often ignored. People tend to ignore or forget that hunting is many times seen as preparation for war and combat. The many port temples and such where fishermen paid homage and made offerings and such to her, and Hekate, in her (their) capacity as Mistress of Animals or Pontia Theron which also applies to fisheries and coastal harvesting of sea creatures. Possibly also manifested in the altars that are occasionally mentioned as being aboard both commercial and military shipping.

For some reason many of the pages seem to be very selective in what they present. Medea and her association to both Jason and Hekate is a wonderful story if you read most of the sites. Yet seldom do they give the rest of the story where Jason abandons her for a younger woman and she murders all of his children by her out of revenge. Makes a great intro to the A woman scorned story line and how she will get payback.

It's like being male you'd not believe the stuff I encounter being sworn and dedicated to both Artemis and Hekate. After all the majority of the info and sites go on and on about her being the protector of women and being unbound to any man. Yet try to prove her protector ship mainly applies to young girls not women and you've broken the holiest of boundaries. After all that disrupts the protector of women thing while ignoring that when a girl came of age she passed to Hera or Demeter and might not come back to Artemis until she was old and gray and might become a guide at one of her shrines, sanctuaries or temples.

[kazumi]

Re: Thracian mythology

Mhm. This may be a bit random; but that's the problem with most historically related texts. Teachers/writers interpret findings their own way (even a small word translation can change the meaning of something drastically) & even the 'original eye witnesses' have their (or an assignment giver) take on what happened.

And then, with god(s), goddess(es), the experiences one has with one...

Alright, instead of getting all philosophical I ought to get to do some work now. (started writing this whole lap of texts with some thoughts that came to mind... alrighty then, kazumi.) Merci beaucoup for your time