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Thread: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

  1. #21
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Oh, Midwestern Corn FArmers, say it ain't so...


    http://grist.org/food/the-midwests-c...an-we-thought/
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  2. #22
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    Oh, Midwestern Corn FArmers, say it ain't so...


    http://grist.org/food/the-midwests-c...an-we-thought/
    I am dubious of the reliability of Mother Jones, even when picked up by another biased organization, so I'd do more research...

    But, considering the water consumption, reliance on chemical fertilizers, the lesson of the Great Dust Bowls, etc., etc., massive multi-state wide swaths of monoculture agriculture is pretty dangerous even without the terror of laughing gas in the atmosphere.

    They really outta switch to hay, cattle, corn, soybeans, sunflowers, and pumpkins.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

  3. #23
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    I'm going to call this one more for the Why We Need Well-Funded and Vigorous Regulation of Industry:

    http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/a...l-parkersburg/
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  4. #24
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    There is a belief that crops should be rotated,and also the land to lie fallow so it can renew itself. Soil can be "Burned out" from single crop over use.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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  5. #25
    Bronze Member magusphredde's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    India seems to be in the news for a few things latey ... http://indianexpress.com/article/cit...c-blend-study/
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

    The Chief nodded in agreement.

    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."




  6. #26
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by anunitu View Post
    There is a belief that crops should be rotated,and also the land to lie fallow so it can renew itself. Soil can be "Burned out" from single crop over use.
    It can be. I mean, it would eventually restore itself, but it would take quite a few years. Before that, it would be pretty infertile. A lot of big industrial farms use chemical fertilizers to restore nutrients to the overworked soil, but that's a pretty terrible idea as well for various reasons.

    Also, did everyone catch the news on sunscreen last week (or maybe it was the week before that)? Studies show that chemicals found in a lot of sunscreen are contributing to coral reef bleaching:

    http://time.com/4080985/sunscreen-coral-reefs/
    http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/news/feb14/sunscreen.html

  7. #27
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Also, did everyone catch the news on sunscreen last week (or maybe it was the week before that)? Studies show that chemicals found in a lot of sunscreen are contributing to coral reef bleaching:

    http://time.com/4080985/sunscreen-coral-reefs/
    http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/news/feb14/sunscreen.html
    Here's the problem...

    They don't KNOW if this is a problem.


    Here's the article abstract: Benzophenone-2 (BP-2) is an additive to personal-care products and commercial solutions that protects against the damaging effects of ultraviolet light. BP-2 is an “emerging contaminant of concern” that is often released as a pollutant through municipal and boat/ship wastewater discharges and landfill leachates, as well as through residential septic fields and unmanaged cesspits. Although BP-2 may be a contaminant on coral reefs, its environmental toxicity to reefs is unknown. This poses a potential management issue, since BP-2 is a known endocrine disruptor as well as a weak genotoxicant. We examined the effects of BP-2 on the larval form (planula) of the coral, Stylophora pistillata, as well as its toxicity to in vitro coral cells. BP-2 is a photo-toxicant; adverse effects are exacerbated in the light versus in darkness. Whether in darkness or light, BP-2 induced coral planulae to transform from a motile planktonic state to a deformed, sessile condition. Planulae exhibited an increasing rate of coral bleaching in response to increasing concentrations of BP-2. BP-2 is a genotoxicant to corals, exhibiting a strong positive relationship between DNA-AP lesions and increasing BP-2 concentrations. BP-2 exposure in the light induced extensive necrosis in both the epidermis and gastrodermis. In contrast, BP-2 exposure in darkness induced autophagy and autophagic cell death. The LC50 of BP-2 in the light for an 8 and 24 h exposure was 120 and 165 parts per billion (ppb), respectively. The LC50s for BP-2 in darkness for the same time points were 144 and 548 ppb. Deformity EC20 levels (24 h) were 246 parts per trillion in the light and 9.6 ppb in darkness.

    (sauce --its pay to play, and I don't have springer access right now, so I can't read the whole thing to evaluate their methodology, etc)

    I'm guessing these are lab studies, so this is likely done in a tank rather than an environmental study. The way the abstract reads, the coral was exposed to BP-2 at varying levels for different periods of time--an 8 or 24 hour treatment. This isn't exactly real-world data, its straight toxicology data. In which case, how big was the sample size? How many trials were there? What were lab conditions? What was the light wattage? Did the light intensity change as it would in a daytime environment, or was it constant? Was the light intensity variable for different depths in different treatments? Basically, did the amounts of light used look and act like sunlight would to a coral 10-20 or 30-40 feet below the ocean? How was potential contamination from other sources controlled? Obviously, from *when* they introduced this (during the larval stage and to individual cells that have been harvested) it is a developmental issue...so, how does BP-2 affect adult coral? What about corals of other species--why was this one chosen?

    But most importantly...How much BP-2 is actually in our wastewater, and (by the time it makes it out to sea) how much BP-2 is actually found at coral reefs anyway? Its great to know how much of X kills or damages an organism or its reproductive capablities. But if the amount that it takes isn't anywhere close to what is found in the system, its a bit of a moot point. AND from a media/public education perspective, stuff like this tends to get taken utterly out of context.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #28
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Interesting. But still, I don't know about there, but here there are a lot of sunscreens that contain zinc and other ingredients that show no evidence of causing harm. Wouldn't it be just better to air on the side of caution and use those instead?

    Personally, I usually forget to wear sunscreen anyway because I don't burn or tan. I know it's not the best, but when nothing happens to my skin in the sun, it's hard to remember.

  9. #29
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Interesting. But still, I don't know about there, but here there are a lot of sunscreens that contain zinc and other ingredients that show no evidence of causing harm. Wouldn't it be just better to air on the side of caution and use those instead?

    Personally, I usually forget to wear sunscreen anyway because I don't burn or tan. I know it's not the best, but when nothing happens to my skin in the sun, it's hard to remember.


    How do you know zinc shows no evidence of causing environmental harm to coral reefs? Where is the data? Where are the studies?

    We have plenty of evidence that zinc can be and is harmful to people and to the rest of the environment. Because the dose makes the poison.

    Zinc enters the air, water, and soil as a result of both natural processes and human activities. Most zinc enters the environment as the result of mining, purifying of zinc, lead, and cadmium ores, steel production, coal burning, and burning of wastes. These activities can increase zinc levels in the atmosphere. Waste streams from zinc and other metal manufacturing and zinc chemical industries, domestic waste water, and run-off from soil containing zinc can discharge zinc into waterways. The level of zinc in soil increases mainly from disposal of zinc wastes from metal manufacturing industries and coal ash from electric utilities. Sludge and fertilizer also contribute to increased levels of zinc in the soil. In air, zinc is present mostly as fine dust particles. This dust eventually settles over land and water. Rain and snow aid in removing zinc from air. Most of the zinc in lakes or rivers settles on the bottom. However, a small amount may remain either dissolved in water or as fine suspended particles. The level of dissolved zinc in water may increase as the acidity of water increases. Fish can collect zinc in their bodies from the water they swim in and from the food they eat. Most of the zinc in soil is bound to the soil and does not dissolve in water. However, depending on the type of soil, some zinc may reach groundwater, and contamination of groundwater has occurred from hazardous waste sites. Zinc may be taken up by animals eating soil or drinking water containing zinc. Zinc is also a trace mineral nutrient and as such, small amounts of zinc are needed in all animals.

    sauce (crud, I forgot to link it and now I can't find the link again...it was from either the epa or cdc)
    Now, is all this zinc coming from sunscreen in wastewater? Probably not. Zinc is something that *should* be removed during the process of treating it. But people go to the beach that waterproof sunscreen has to go somewhere. Taken by itself, zinc in sunscreen is probably extremely negligible in the environment. But, its a contributory affect---its one more route for zinc to enter an environment in a way that it was not occuring without human involvement (by far, the problem from zinc comes from mining and smelting). Zinc in particular is a fish neurotoxin (when the dose is right) and is taken up readily in aquatic environments.


    If one has to choose between zinc and BP-2, is zinc less damaging to a very specific part of the environement? Probably. But we don't know that until its been studied.

    I'm not trying to pick on you here. I'm trying to say that there are always, always, always tradeoffs. Nothing is safe. Safety is a relative term. Harm is a relative term. We need better data (which is expensive) to make the decision that mitigate harm as much as possible and ensure safety--for everyone, human and non--as much as possible. But the science we use to make those decisions needs to be sound. I'm a firm believer in the precautionary principle. But once again, it comes down to dose.
    Last edited by thalassa; 02 Nov 2015 at 07:02.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  10. #30
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Environmental Pollution, the thread...

    There is the issue of those TINY plastic beads used in facial scrubs and other places showing up in water supply's.
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    http://www.paganforum.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=186&dateline=1330020104

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

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