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    #16
    Re: false gods

    Personally I can agree with most posts. Lets look at Final Fantasy 14 and compare. The Kobolds, for instance, worship Titan. Titan is brought into the realm by the power the kobolds themselves give to him by worshiping him. If we as humans can put forth our own energy into believing in a "God", Would it not be possible that this energy would pool together and form said God? Maybe not physically but spiritually? This not only explains why so many gods are worshiped but also why these heavily worshipped gods can be seen doing miracles. ie God saving a cancer patient when there is no logical explanation for their survival. So when thinking of that, I believe that there are no "false gods". I remember talking with a christian the other day and he said this to me (knowing that I am a pagan that worships many gods), "My God is your God is one God". To me this just says that No god is a false god, but all gods are pieces of a whole.
    Now here's the kicker, think of god as reality itself, and the different pantheons as different aspects of the universe. We personify these aspects so that we may push our own energy into them. For example, when I pray to Odin Im giving energy to Odin so that I may tap into the energy that makes Odin what he is and what he represents. I guess it may not make much sense but those are my thoughts.
    Click Meh!!

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      #17
      Re: false gods

      Originally posted by Haseo View Post
      God saving a cancer patient when there is no logical explanation for their survival.
      That's not really a miracle though, that's a medical mystery. A limb regrowing would be a miracle. We have bodily processes that fight cancer, some of them are not well understood but that is nowhere near grounds for making the leap to divine intervention being the only possible cause.
      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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        #18
        Re: false gods

        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
        LOL - in common language (unlike in technical language) words and phrases mean whatever the person using them intends them to mean, rather than what a dictionary or grammatical analysis would indicate they mean.

        Which goes a long way in explaining the never-ending misunderstandings that humans have enjoyed for so very, very long.

        Q: Is it good to feed your hamster sunflower seeds?

        A: I don't know. Define what you mean by "good."
        Heck yeah! And I am always up for 'some antics' [/semantics].




        "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

        "Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius

        "The very ink with which history is written is merely fluid prejudice." - Mark Twain

        "The only gossip I'm interested in is things from the Weekly World News - 'Woman's bra bursts, 11 injured'. That kind of thing." - Johnny Depp


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          #19
          Re: false gods

          Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
          So the world would look vastly different if the followers of the LoH ended up writing the final doctrine instead of having it written for them?
          Short answer, yes.
          Longer answer and again if I recall correctly, the Jews brought YHWH with them when they left Egypt and returned to Israel where the Canaanites were worshipping Elohim and the rest of the pantheon. Since they couldn't get people to stop worshipping Elohim and co. they co-opted the faith in stead. If things had run the other way around everything would have looked very different.

          Originally posted by nbdy View Post
          And, MoonRaven, I did have to read that twice. That is some kind of story. How old were you? Which church? Had indoctrination from several protestant denominations and we missed that story. Gotta give them credit for trying to make sense of it, but ... wow.
          Sorry I wasn't clear. It was in school, not church. I'm the daughter of an atheist and an agnostic so I wasn't introduced to anything about religion really until I started school. I do have a children's Bible that some Jehova's Witnesses gave me, but I never saw it as anything otehr than a fancy picture book and I had a ton of those. So to me the whole thing was fictive. I have never been as confused in my life as the first time I went trough Christmas stuff in school, because I had not frame of reference so I was all: "who's that couple?", "Why are they in a stable?", "Wait? What? That star we're singing about isn't the sun?", "Why not?". It was frankly the most bizarre experience of my life :XD:.
          In Denmark all kids have religion education from about 3rd grade to 7th, then if you move on then in what is our equivalent of college. We learn about religions, that is their theoretical frameworks and histories, but there is not preaching - that's the base premise of the subject "no preaching". Usually all major religions gets covered as well as a number of smaller ones too.
          This if I recall correctly was in 7th grade (which would make me 13-14 years old, hence I'm remembering 20 years back. Meep) and our teacher was way cool. She deconstructed all five of the major religions, starting with Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam, moved on to Hinduism and finally finished off just before summer break with Buddhism. I was actually sorry not to have the subject the next year. (I changed school a lot so I had many teachers in this subject and most were dreadfully dull, but this one was fantastic.)
          Warning: The above post may contain traces of sarcasm.

          An apostrophe is the difference between a business that knows its shit, and a business that knows it's shit.

          "Why is every object we don't understand always called a thing?" (McCoy. Star Trek: The Moive Picture)

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            #20
            Re: false gods

            Originally posted by MoonRaven View Post
            Sorry I wasn't clear. It was in school, not church. I'm the daughter of an atheist and an agnostic so I wasn't introduced to anything about religion really until I started school. I do have a children's Bible that some Jehova's Witnesses gave me, but I never saw it as anything otehr than a fancy picture book and I had a ton of those. So to me the whole thing was fictive. I have never been as confused in my life as the first time I went trough Christmas stuff in school, because I had not frame of reference so I was all: "who's that couple?", "Why are they in a stable?", "Wait? What? That star we're singing about isn't the sun?", "Why not?". It was frankly the most bizarre experience of my life :XD:.
            In Denmark all kids have religion education from about 3rd grade to 7th, then if you move on then in what is our equivalent of college. We learn about religions, that is their theoretical frameworks and histories, but there is not preaching - that's the base premise of the subject "no preaching". Usually all major religions gets covered as well as a number of smaller ones too.
            This if I recall correctly was in 7th grade (which would make me 13-14 years old, hence I'm remembering 20 years back. Meep) and our teacher was way cool. She deconstructed all five of the major religions, starting with Judaism, then Christianity, then Islam, moved on to Hinduism and finally finished off just before summer break with Buddhism. I was actually sorry not to have the subject the next year. (I changed school a lot so I had many teachers in this subject and most were dreadfully dull, but this one was fantastic.)
            Fascinating. And chances are that you received a better religious education than many who have gone to church all their lives in the U.S.

            "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

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              #21
              Re: false gods

              This is an amazing thread! I read it yesterday and then had to let the ideas percolate for awhile before responding.

              All the responses as well as my own experience got me thinking.

              Maybe there are not false gods, so much as people saying false things about the gods.

              If I worship a tin can, and call it god, and by contemplating the tin can, I learn valuable lessons for my life. And by worshiping the tin can I learn humility, honesty etc. Then the tin can is indeed my god, and my relationship with it is that of a person with their god.

              But if I start claiming the tin can speaks in audible french to anyone who drops quarters into it...and the tin can does not do so. I have made a false claim about it. It's not a failing of the tin can that it does not do what I say it does or should do.

              I think that many times gods are misrepresented, and they appear false because of the ridiculous claims or traits some people assign them.

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                #22
                Re: false gods

                Here's a little question that might put things straight;
                Humans have been existed about 35 000 years. (i involve Cro-Magnon humans in this time period because modern human originates from them.) Christianity was "invented" 2000 years ago. So, if christian god is only true god - are all those people who have lived before Christianity burning their eternity in hell because they didn't know the one true god?
                I mean, seriously guys... 33 000 years - billions of people, and there was not single one good person worth of saving? Worth of "heaven", some other paradise, reincarnation or what ever?

                I'll rest my case.
                Pray the Gods - Fine - But keep rowing to shore.

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                  #23
                  Re: false gods

                  Originally posted by Varga View Post
                  Here's a little question that might put things straight;
                  Humans have been existed about 35 000 years. (i involve Cro-Magnon humans in this time period because modern human originates from them.) Christianity was "invented" 2000 years ago. So, if christian god is only true god - are all those people who have lived before Christianity burning their eternity in hell because they didn't know the one true god?
                  I mean, seriously guys... 33 000 years - billions of people, and there was not single one good person worth of saving? Worth of "heaven", some other paradise, reincarnation or what ever?

                  I'll rest my case.
                  Problem is that your case is based on the same bad history that some Chrisians use (without going into the fact that Christianity is a diverse set of some 38,000 religious tradition and that plenty traditions that have dealt with this so-called problem wrapped in a logical fallacy). The Christian god is the god of Abraham and predates Christianity by some several millennia. And the god of Abraham is from the Caananite pantheon, the god that Abraham made a deal with, that his relatives and descendants would worship exclusvely in exchange for favoritism (aka the Covenant).

                  Gods evolve with the culural evolution of the followers.

                  Also, as I was taught in Sunday school (United Church of Christ), and the Hubby was taught in RE classes (at his all-boys Catholic boarding school), the death of Jesus saved (and continues to save) anyone hasn't heard his Gospel. This is a pretty standard answer for most mainstream denominations, though there are "solutions" (if one percieves it as a theological problem rather than a theological logical fallacy) as varied as the Mormon mass baptisms and the doctrine of Universalism.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

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                    #24
                    Re: false gods

                    So... Abrahamic religions were invented about 35 000 years ago... or in the beginning of the time. Not about 2600 years ago. Okay... Witch one's worshipped the only true god first Cro-Magnons or Neanterdahls? Hmmm... Maybe Cro-Magnons. Neanterdahls were extinguished so they were probably Satan worshippers, so they are in hell... But Cro-Magnons made the goddess statues so most of them didn't worship one true god - so most of them are in hell...

                    Damn. And i thought that i was asking a good question. Well, good to have this thing sorted.
                    Pray the Gods - Fine - But keep rowing to shore.

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                      #25
                      Re: false gods

                      The only true god,at least for most people is the one they worship. All others are false,unless you believe in another God,so the one you follow MUST be the true God,cause YOU follow he,she,it. Simple,yet it all depends on who is talking about real gods,or made up ones that should all die in a fiery hell(Note,makes as much sense as any other claim to "truedomness")

                      False gods=other peoples gods
                      True god(s)=The ones I follow
                      Day=What I perceive as light
                      Night=What I perceive as dark.
                      MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                      all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                      NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                      don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                      sigpic

                      my new page here,let me know what you think.


                      nothing but the shadow of what was

                      witchvox
                      http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                        #26
                        Re: false gods

                        Originally posted by Varga View Post
                        So... Abrahamic religions were invented about 35 000 years ago... or in the beginning of the time. Not about 2600 years ago. Okay... Witch one's worshipped the only true god first Cro-Magnons or Neanterdahls? Hmmm... Maybe Cro-Magnons. Neanterdahls were extinguished so they were probably Satan worshippers, so they are in hell... But Cro-Magnons made the goddess statues so most of them didn't worship one true god - so most of them are in hell...


                        This isn't even worth a point by point response, so suffice to say that I didn't say that, or anything close to it.

                        Nice try at hyperbole.

                        Also, you ought to do more research on the origins of religion and on early human history and human evolution as a whole.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                        sigpic

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                          #27
                          Re: false gods

                          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                          The only true god,at least for most people is the one they worship. All others are false,unless you believe in another God,so the one you follow MUST be the true God,cause YOU follow he,she,it. Simple,yet it all depends on who is talking about real gods,or made up ones that should all die in a fiery hell(Note,makes as much sense as any other claim to "truedomness")

                          False gods=other peoples gods
                          True god(s)=The ones I follow
                          Day=What I perceive as light
                          Night=What I perceive as dark.
                          Monotheists are bound to say that any god other than their own is a false god.

                          Polytheists are not. Many (maybe most) polytheists believe that pantheons other than their own are legit, but have a "contract"/relationship with their own people.

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                            #28
                            Re: false gods

                            Originally posted by Threshold View Post
                            Monotheists are bound to say that any god other than their own is a false god.

                            Polytheists are not. Many (maybe most) polytheists believe that pantheons other than their own are legit, but have a "contract"/relationship with their own people.
                            Agreed. But I would like to add, that monotheists are bound with their people too. The polytheistic pantheons work differently than the monotheistic ones, in my opinion.
                            "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                            Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                              #29
                              Re: false gods

                              Originally posted by Varga View Post
                              So... Abrahamic religions were invented about 35 000 years ago... or in the beginning of the time. Not about 2600 years ago. Okay... Witch one's worshipped the only true god first Cro-Magnons or Neanterdahls? Hmmm... Maybe Cro-Magnons. Neanterdahls were extinguished so they were probably Satan worshippers, so they are in hell... But Cro-Magnons made the goddess statues so most of them didn't worship one true god - so most of them are in hell...

                              Damn. And i thought that i was asking a good question. Well, good to have this thing sorted.
                              No. Not even close.
                              Point one: The god of Abraham comes from an pantheon of other gods in the middle east worshiped by the Canaanites. Yahweh has been worshiped since at least the 14th century BC and over time becomes worshiped as the only god. Religions evolve and you'd be hard pressed to find something that hasn't changed at least a little in thousands and thousands of years of worship of a deity, especially with monotheistic religions that attempt to reconcile the traits of numerous deities into a single entity.

                              Point two: There has never been a unified religion for all humans in existence and as such people believe different things. There are regional cults that worship different deities or sets of deities. The existence of other deities being worshiped would not invalidate the existence of other worship.

                              Point three: What is your preoccupation with hell? The concept of hell hasn't always existed, even among the Hebrews. It's probably a result of cultural exchange with Zoroastrians.

                              Point four: Our best guess of when Neanderthals went extinct is about 40,000 years ago so your mentioning of them is irrelevant. From what I understand, you think the human race is younger than it actually is. Modern Humans have existed for around 200,000 years. If you really want to throw in irrelevant crap like this, Homo-Erectus probably had the capacity to theorize about religion since it's likely they had language

                              Did you listen to a single thing Thal said, or are you so pressed on making the other side seem wrong you can't think straight? It is completely unnecessary to go back to the dawn of humanity to discuss the concept of false gods. It annoys the heck out of me when people attempt to make the argument that whoever was first must be right, that if something predates something else it automatically makes everything following it wrong.

                              Look at it in context and if can't, then try to keep your vendetta against Christianity out of it and MAYBE you can make a useful contribution to the thread. The only reason I'm even posting in this thread is to respond to the babble you're trying to pass off. If you really believed the point you were making then maybe you'd look at the doctrine you're trying to contradict.
                              Circe

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                                #30
                                Re: false gods

                                Originally posted by Varga View Post
                                So... Abrahamic religions were invented about 35 000 years ago... or in the beginning of the time.
                                Please tell me you aren't insinuating that the entire universe as we know it is only 35,000 years old. Because boy, you and I are going to have a talk about how rocks are formed. And you won't like it.


                                Mostly art.

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